An idea on how to objectively listen and to assess your playing as a "beginner"

[ranjit]

I mean "beginner" very loosely here, and I also fall into that category, where nothing you play really approaches a professional quality of recording. I found it hard to notice the difference between my playing and that of a professional's.

That was until I recorded myself playing on a piano AND recorded a good piano student playing on the same piano, with the same recording device. Then I listened back to it with good speakers.

Boy, was that a revelation.

[j_tour]

That was until I recorded myself playing on a piano AND recorded a good piano student playing on the same piano, with the same recording device. Then I listened back to it with good speakers.

Boy, was that a revelation.

Yeah, it would be, right?!

I wish when I were younger (say from young teenager/tween to maybe age 22 or so) I had the stones to apply The Recording to my own playing (highly encouraged by my best and longest-term "legit music" piano teacher, but duly ignored by me, even though I was already using a 1/4" open-reel machine to slow down jazz solos, so I had the technology!), and also foreign language things would have been nice.

I have since made any number of recordings, even just through onboard sequencers, or things from defunct live band concerts, but I must say, it's become such an effort.  I don't bother anymore:  it's just an unnecessary hassle.

I feel as though I have good enough context and experience to know what I sound like.  Although it still is something I have done in the past few years to check the tempo, and make sure I'm still metronomically within a reasonable range doing just improvised "American" music.  It's easy to inadvertently slow down or even speed up if it's familiar material one has done a million times and is not paying attention....because of....reasons.  Basically not paying attention while playing,

The worst is trying to record video+audio with a phone or a small tablet:  it's incredible to me that everyone but me seems to be able to find the right tripod (or piece of duck tape/gorilla glue) to get the right angle.  That's well beyond me.

That was until I recorded myself playing on a piano AND recorded a good piano student playing on the same piano, with the same recording device. Then I listened back to it with good speakers.

I'm interpreting as that you acquited yourself very well in the comparison.

If so, congratulations!  Most times in the past (not, in my case, doing comparisons, just improvised music) I've been somewhat gratified by what is minimally acceptable playing on my part.

[ranjit]

I'm interpreting as that you acquited yourself very well in the comparison.

If so, congratulations!  Most times in the past (not, in my case, doing comparisons, just improvised music) I've been somewhat gratified by what is minimally acceptable playing on my part.

Haha, well, I have a tendency to really like my improvisations at times as well. My playing  was considerably worse, and I had too shallow an attack which made things sound unclear. It was night and day, honestly, especially when it came to classical pieces. I think that often you wonder whether it was the piano, the recording quality, or if you're just imagining things lol. But on such an obvious side-by-side comparison, the difference was very apparent. I should cut myself some slack because this person had been preparing those pieces since a year for a recital, but it was a huge difference and I really realized what some of the pianists out here had been saying about my shoddy technique.

I think the part of it where it is the exact same piano is relevant. I probably wouldn't feel that way if I'd just heard it from a recording.

[j_tour]

Haha, well, I have a tendency to really like my improvisations at times as well. My playing  was considerably worse, and I had too shallow an attack which made things sound unclear. It was night and day, honestly, especially when it came to classical pieces. I think that often you wonder whether it was the piano, the recording quality, or if you're just imagining things lol. But on such an obvious side-by-side comparison, the difference was very apparent. I should cut myself some slack because this person had been preparing those pieces since a year for a recital, but it was a huge difference and I really realized what some of the pianists out here had been saying about my shoddy technique.

I think the part of it where it is the exact same piano is relevant. I probably wouldn't feel that way if I'd just heard it from a recording.

Oh, I see now!    You had a moment of reckoning.

Well, like I implied, you have big cojones to look at the truth head on.  That's still an accomplishment, IMHO:  to assess and compare, somewhat objectively.

Only way to go is up as the dialectic turns!

[lostinidlewonder]

...I found it hard to notice the difference between my playing and that of a professional's. That was until I recorded myself playing on a piano AND recorded a good piano student playing on the same piano, with the same recording device.

Do you really think the "same" recording device really plays a factor? I wonder why you couldn't hear the difference between your own recording and say a studio one?

The main issue is being able to listen to yourself closely while playing and this does require freedom of thought and some mastery over the piece you are playing. If you are playing something where your mind is strongly focused on the physical nature of things you are just going to not be able to focus on the sound production effectively or accurately.

When you learn higher level pieces it can be difficult to fully master them and play them with creative freedom, you always will have some physical technical aspect of the playing being at the forefront of your mind. This is just not "the" way to play the piano imho and if playing mastered pieces at the piano was like that I would have done something else, just too stressful! These are the practice thoughts that run through our mind but when we break free from those and can listen to ourselves much closer, that is where the good experience lies.

Focus on your improvement rather than comparing with others, comparing yourself with others simply depresses you or gives you a big head, both which are not good.
 

[timothy42b]

The main issue is being able to listen to yourself closely while playing and this does require freedom of thought and some mastery over the piece you are playing. If you are playing something where your mind is strongly focused on the physical nature of things you are just going to not be able to focus on the sound production effectively or accurately.

True, I think, but it's much more than that.

See if you like this feedback formulation.

You have a goal in your head, an image of the sound you want to create.

You listen for what you are doing, and calculate the error, the difference between what you should have done and what you did do.

Then you apply correction to make it better.

That's what a thermostat does.  It knows what the temperature should be, it measures what the temperature is, and then it corrects the error by turning the furnace on or off.

The problem for humans is that you can't easily listen to two voices at once, at least I can't.  If I have firmly fixed in my brain what i should sound like, I have trouble hearing what I really do sound like.

That's where recording comes in.  As humbling as it is, I find it essential to improving.  And it can be part of the process of calibrating your ear to hear what you're really doing.

[j_tour]

You listen for what you are doing, and calculate the error, the difference between what you should have done and what you did do.

Then you apply correction to make it better.

That's what a thermostat does.  It knows what the temperature should be, it measures what the temperature is, and then it corrects the error by turning the furnace on or off.

Yes.

I certainly agree, and I can't imagine anyone who doesn't agree.

But don't you find that with enough experience one does become much better at "listening to the simultaneous streams" (let's call it an idealized performance and one's own execution)?

No, there are some kinds of psychological impediments, no doubt, that lead one to over-value or under-value one's own performance in real time.

Of course.

But, still it is an ability one gets better at, no?  At least I find that is correct.  But I could be wrong.

[lostinidlewonder]

True, I think, but it's much more than that.

See if you like this feedback formulation.

You have a goal in your head, an image of the sound you want to create.

You listen for what you are doing, and calculate the error, the difference between what you should have done and what you did do.

Then you apply correction to make it better.

I feel what you have described is a part of the process of mastering a piece rather than being able to actually listen to yourself while perfoming something you think you have mastered. When I play something I know well I am not calculating much at all and just listening to the response the instrument I am playing provides, if it is an instrument I know well my thoughts are quite free, but if it is a totally unusual piano my thoughts are about how this piano is feeling and the sound its producing not so much my exact control of the piece because that has already been solved and is known very well, but how a poor instrument might translate it does distract ones thoughts. I've played plenty of public street pianos and am always making sure I don't break the poor things lol. Nevertheless after a number of minutes the thoughts vanish and you just deal with the piece of junk in front of you. Too much thinking while playing disrupts your ability to listen to yourself clearly.

I don't know what level mastery for a specific piece people are using to compare their playing to but you would think they would compare something they think they can play very well rather than something that is in the process of development. Of course if you only play pieces that are in development and you never have reached the position of freely being able to listen to the sound you produce a recording will be beneficial to allow you to listen to yourself without your thoughts being distracted in the process of playing something you haven't completely mastered.

The problem for humans is that you can't easily listen to two voices at once, at least I can't.  If I have firmly fixed in my brain what i should sound like, I have trouble hearing what I really do sound like.

Surely you can tell the difference between intervals, you actually need to be able to hear 2 sounds at once to hear them combine to create one sound. Or listen to a simple round? You can hear entire orchestras play with so many instruments but you might not be able to follow the exact notes of all of them simultaneously but that doesn't matter. When you listen to someone speak do you think of every single letter that is used to create the words they say? When we play pieces we know well we are actively listening to entire phrases of music being played and are not caught up over every single note we are playing, that would simply overwhelm your thoughts. Through our practice sessions we actively work to reduce the amount of thinking required to play the piece. So when you have this freedom of thought with a piece you then can actively listen to what you are playing no matter how many voices are being used.
 

That's where recording comes in.  As humbling as it is, I find it essential to improving.

But this suggests that everyone who played piano before recordings were missing something in their improvement? I don't think recordings are important in that respect but it can be a good way to humble yourself if one has an inflated opinion of their own playing and are not listening effectively while playing. Certainly if a recording sounds very different (and I say very different because it will always sound different compared to a live sound in a given physical space) to what you are hearing while playing then you need to improve your listening skills while playing and that always comes as you gain more and more control of your piece.

[ranjit]

I certainly think it made a difference listening back to the recordings vs in person. There are multiple factors:

The sound is different sitting right in front of the piano as compared to listening to it a few feet away.

In particular, I recognized the difference in tone color. It's a pretty subtle thing to pick up on. My playing was sounding sort of "garbled" and the touch was shallow. These were things I had really not thought about in that way earlier, after all I had mostly played on digitals. And the piano performance students who had been playing for 15 years were very good at those things. I think that playing too softly makes the sound a bit more tinny. With proper classical technique, the sound is more clear, full and vibrant.

Regardless, these are the sorts of things which aren't easily picked up from recordings due to the distortion  and you'd ideally need to hear them in person. However, using the same recording device ensured that I knew it wasn't the fault of the audio equipment.

I mean, the first time I heard Prokofiev in person, I loved it. I never got that from recordings, and I'm pretty sure it's because of the issue with audio quality.

[timothy42b]

No, there are some kinds of psychological impediments, no doubt, that lead one to over-value or under-value one's own performance in real time.

Of course.

But, still it is an ability one gets better at, no?  At least I find that is correct.  But I could be wrong.

I'm not sure it is an impediment.  When we are beginners we may play or sing so badly that if we realized it we would immediately quit. 

This may differ quite a bit on different instruments - some may be much easier to hear.  I'm not sure.  Certainly a lot of people sing quite obliviously to how much pain they cause to the rest of us.  Hee, hee. 

But yes, I think we do get better at listening to ourselves.  Further, I suspect that what separates the prodigies or great talents from the rest of us is that they either learn this much faster, or possibly are born without needing that step.  (the rest of us includes me - don't intend to insult you if by chance you are one of those prodigies) 

For a non musical example of calibration:  As a child I had a bad lisp.  In high school a speech therapist taught me to make this weird sound that he claimed was an "s."  it did not sound like an s to me, not in the slightest.  It was more like a breathy whistle, totally inappropriate while speaking.  But he convinced me to substitute it for my normal s.  And of course he was right, and over time my brain recalibrated to hear it as an s.  Similarly on trombone there are some differences in tone that I can hear, and listening to recordings have helped me to hear them more closely to how they actually sound rather than how i think they sound. 

How did they do it before easy recording?  I dunno, again I put some of it down to natural or developed skill, and some to effort. 

[brogers70]

But this suggests that everyone who played piano before recordings were missing something in their improvement?

Sure, why not? They were missing one particular way of getting feedback on their playing that many people now find helpful. On the other hand, they were more likely to have more frequent lessons and more opportunities to get feedback from other humans than many of us today; we are missing some of the advantages they had. Recording yourself is not a crutch that interferes with learning to listen to yourself; it's a tool to help you get better at listening to yourself. You hear aspects of your laying you hadn't before and you learn to tune in to them while you are playing because you've had a chance to hear them and think about them while you weren't.

[lostinidlewonder]

How did they do it before easy recording?  I dunno, again I put some of it down to natural or developed skill, and some to effort. 

A vast majority of my students and myself improve our pieces without the use of recordings. I guess it depends on the person if they find such things useful.

Sure, why not? They were missing one particular way of getting feedback on their playing that many people now find helpful.

You will find a vast majority of lessons you have will not include using recordings as part of your training. It is because we have many other priorities which are more important to get on with. If you are studying on your own then I guess recordings can be helpful for you to review your playing, I feel if it would be better just to improve without the use of such tools and only use it near the end of the process.

[ranjit]

A vast majority of my students and myself improve our pieces without the use of recordings. I guess it depends on the person if they find such things useful.
You will find a vast majority of lessons you have will not include using recordings as part of your training. It is because we have many other priorities which are more important to get on with.

Interesting. I find that one of the main reasons I record myself is that the sound of the piano is different when I'm playing it, when compared to the point of view of a listener. I hear more extraneous noises such as those made by the keys, the dampers, the pedals, the attack, etc. and the sound balance is also somewhat different. The sound also "rings out" more when you are further away from the piano.

Another thing is that, while I can focus on the sound in a particular passage, there is a window of maybe 10 seconds where I can remember the sound I produced on the instrument. After that, it is hard to keep track of large-scale dynamics and coherence of the structure of a piece in real time.

Often, I record myself if I did something right or learned a new technique which I would like to remember. The memory wears off after a few hours, and watching a recording can rekindle it.

It's good for certain kinds of analyses. You can skip across timestamps and analyze hand movements etc. much like a sportsman would. Recently, I realized just how my left hand was playing flatter than I thought, and changing that dramatically improved some aspects of my playing.