Chopin 10-2

[Ziggy]

I submit that the official nickname of this piece will henthforth be "Tricky Little Bastad"

Do you guys have any tips for this piece other than method practice the hell out of it?  I read Robert Henrys post on this and it was a helpful way to think about it (chord study with glissandos, not finger study) - any other tips thoughts?


Here's my amateur recording of it

https://www.geocities.com/hepcat1ofone/chopin10-2.mp3

[steinwayguy]

Not a bad recording...

Stick your right elbow out and turn your hand like you're turning a door-knob to the left.

[Ziggy]

Ahh, geocities = spawn of the devil - anyone want to host it? (1.3 meg)

Thanks Steinway. You mean this door knob action for taking the chords?

[SteinwayTony]

IMHO, 10-2 takes the cake for the most "deceptively difficult" etude Chopin wrote.  To the untrained ear, it sounds like a simple chromatic scale with simple quarter-note accompaniment.  Some people I know have cheated (leaving out the bottom two notes in the right hand's chords) and claim to have gotten away with it.  Personally I think that's a pretty moronic thing to do...cheating at an etude defeats the purpose.  

Oh, and I wouldn't say Geocities is the "spawn of the devil," considering that they don't ask a single thing from you at all.  Many free hosting sites have gone under, finding the whole thing pointless, but Geocities has remained.  And pardon them if they don't want to host your large MP3 files for you to post all over the internet and suck out their bandwidth...for free (meaning at their expense).

[jlh]

No, not a bad recording at all.  It's a bit rough (but accurate - note wise) in a few spots, but you seem to have a grasp of the piece.

Just a few suggestions to take or leave.  I'd prefer to hear a bit more dynamic contrast throughout.  Specifically when ascending start softer and crescendo, and the converse when descending.  Also, the middle section lacks the "mysterious" aspect that comes with playing it softer. 

These comments from someone who hasn't played it, yet heard it 100's of times...

This is definitely one of the most deceptively difficult of the etudes, and a former teacher of mine has said she knows people to have injured themselves playing this piece.

[Brian Healey]

Somewhat unrelated to the topic, but if you want someplace to host your files, put them on soundclick.com. All you have to do is register and you can upload all the mp3s you want, and there are no bandwidth limits since the whole point is for people to hear your music. And it's free.


Peace,
Bri

[SDL]

I have no idea what Steinway is on about - dont you mean turn to the right as you are facing?
Dont exaggerate the elbow.  Everyones playing equipment is different. Practice the co-ordination of wrist, weight and arm muscles in a way which you can feel is comfortable.  I practiced slow with legato with wrist turning to the left slightly (ie fingers pointing in direction of the flow upwards) - if you turn a door know doesnt your wrist turn outwards right - how does this work?). I  also practiced just the right hand chromatic to glide up and down comfortably.  The chords help balance the hand with a kind of bounce to get out of the keys and drive the 3,4, 5 fingers upwards.  On the downwards you need to get the hand out of the keys the other way (it must not hinder the chromatic flow but help relax it). 

Ive looked at the tips on this forum and interpretation of the technique descriptions can lead to over-exaggeration in the wrong direction. 

Once you get comfortable with the top line you can try faster = lighter.  Legato will still be in tact (even) although it will get more portando.  You really have to try extremes (heavy chords, light chords, pointed thumbs, accents, rhythms etc.., and gradually balance them out)

Its working for me

[chromatickler]

if i wanna see how this etude lookz on vid:

https://chopinforum.com/~mazeppa/da_random_vid.mpg

[steinwayguy]

As far as I know, you need to have the same hand position throughout the piece (for the most part). I mean that your hand needs to be turned to the left the entire time- that is your hand position.

[SDL]

Your wrist turns left your fingers point right (to accomodate 3rd finger length preparing for next note in the scale).

Its more or less same poisition but I try to advocate saying that your hand moves in micro movements to accomodate alignment with fingers for optimum flexibility.

[lenny]

if i wanna see how this etude lookz on vid:

https://chopinforum.com/~mazeppa/da_random_vid.mpg

such virtuosity! 

but where is the music?

[lenny]

in fact, that brings to mind this recording:

https://www.msk.tsi.ru/~ruden/Rudenko1MP3.wav

 

[jlh]

in fact, that brings to mind this recording:

https://www.msk.tsi.ru/~ruden/Rudenko1MP3.wav

 

Thanks... I thoroughly enjoyed that. 

[lenny]

im not sure someone learning the piece would though, that recording is seriously SCARY!

[SDL]

hmm the video I saw was not the chopin 10-2 but some left hand chromatic scale with chords (looks like a Godowsky etude on chopins etudes although could be wrong)-- is there a video of someone actually playing this chopin etude proplerly?

[lenny]

hmm the video I saw was not the chopin 10-2 but some left hand chromatic scale with chords (looks like a Godowsky etude on chopins etudes although could be wrong)-- is there a video of someone actually playing this chopin etude proplerly?

the video is of the terrifyingly difficult left hand reworking of the 10/2 by godowsky

considerably more difficult than the original, quite a mean feat!

[chromatickler]

DAYUM, da SDC is proud of u mofoz. and respect da lenny fo quoting moi rite b4 posting da legendary rec. it made me feel DAT much closer to da legend himself. respect

 

[lenny]

what can i say? you are both masters! 

[johnnypiano]

I have not heard your performance yet.  (About one performance, Vlado Perlmuter said to a student, "Yes.  Very good, very fast - but where is Chopin?")   

There is some similarity between how I first practised this Study and how I worked on Chopin's C sharp minor Prelude.  In the Prelude, I leave out the top notes and concentrate on the cascade of downward notes, getting them light and fast, so fast that there are hardly any accents.  Then I easily brush in the accompanying top notes.

In the Etude, I concentrate on the scale and the difficult use of the 4th and 5th fingers.  Later, I put  in the chords - lightly and staccato.  If one does it this way one has to concentrate on the hand leading the scale in the direction it's going.  The chords have to accommodate themselves to what is happening above.

 

[lenny]

regarding the tempo of this piece - personally i prefer it at presto...i feel it sounds best at a bumblebee-ish tempo

[SDL]

I like Berezovsky's speed - it doesnt compromise the music but is around the 144 mark

[Awakening]

Yes, this piece is insanely difficult.  I probably would never even attempt it, because to people listening, it doesn't sound difficult, and a lot of the challenge is unknown to the audience.  Until looking at the score (or the musician's hands), one doesn't realize the crazy things that the right hand is being forced to do.  The fingerings are ridiculous.  Good job playing it--I've heard many recordings, and this is very good for an amateur.  Then again, playing this piece at all is an accomplishment.  Some more dynamics might be nice, but the tempo and accuracy/articulation are stellar.

[lenny]

I like Berezovsky's speed - it doesnt compromise the music but is around the 144 mark

im afriad that tempo IS actually compromising the music to me, i dislike slow tempo in this piece

[paulfechner]

-> Ziggy...good recording in my opinion! how long did you practise until you recorded it? 

greetz

paul

[musicsdarkangel]

Use as little of the key as possible.  Make sure that you are not tense at all (jaw tightening up, arms tight).  Let your arm guide you, with out any jerks.  Just keep it moving and think every four notes until you speed up, than think every 4 beats. 

Although easier said than done, glide across the keys rather than concentrating on each note.

[Ziggy]

-> Ziggy...good recording in my opinion! how long did you practise until you recorded it? 

greetz

paul

Thanks, from about October or November to February

[fnork]

Yes, this piece is insanely difficult.  I probably would never even attempt it, because to people listening, it doesn't sound difficult, and a lot of the challenge is unknown to the audience.  Until looking at the score (or the musician's hands), one doesn't realize the crazy things that the right hand is being forced to do.  The fingerings are ridiculous.  Good job playing it--I've heard many recordings, and this is very good for an amateur.  Then again, playing this piece at all is an accomplishment.  Some more dynamics might be nice, but the tempo and accuracy/articulation are stellar.

And anyway, it's probably the most boring etude to listen to... just chromatics. I don't hear more music in this than in Czernys etudes. Although I like the part where the left stays on an E for a few measures.

[lenny]

harmony and counterpart in this piece is far richer than just about any czerny piece

[argerich_smitten]

And anyway, it's probably the most boring etude to listen to... just chromatics. I don't hear more music in this than in Czernys etudes. Although I like the part where the left stays on an E for a few measures.

   

I would take listening to the left hand alone of this piece over a Czerny etude.

This etude is very mysterious and intense sounding, yet it's not imposing.  It's very...  crystalline.  I could listen to this for hours if it was in a large hall or better yet, a church with echoey acoustics.  Too much pedal muddies things up, but with a nice large room to sustain the clear tones for a little while after the keys are hit, the revealed harmonies are absolutely fantastic. 

[lenny]

just the richness of harmony and possibilities of voicing alone - make even SLOW practive very nice to listen to.

[musicsdarkangel]

in fact, that brings to mind this recording:

https://www.msk.tsi.ru/~ruden/Rudenko1MP3.wav

 

WOW

[Pianostudy]

in fact, that brings to mind this recording:

https://www.msk.tsi.ru/~ruden/Rudenko1MP3.wav

 

Who is the pianist in this recording?

[lenny]

https://www.msk.tsi.ru/~ruden/Rudenko-en.htm

vadim rudenko

a phenomenon!