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Fingering, 4 2 3 1 4 2 3 1 4 2 3 1...really?

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Topic: Fingering, 4 2 3 1 4 2 3 1 4 2 3 1...really? (Read 1931 times)

lettersquash

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Posts: 190

Fingering, 4 2 3 1 4 2 3 1 4 2 3 1...really?

on: May 27, 2021, 07:02:40 PM

Hi, I was struggling with my Bach Two Part Invention No.1 in C yesterday, and identified one reason as the passage in the left hand in the attached photo, where there's a rising set of thirds from F# up to the F above, with fingering 4, 2, 3, 1 repeated. I find this odd and counterintuitive. I've been trying to learn it like this, accepting the wisdom of the editor over my own. I stopped and worked on it, getting in all sorts of tangles. Then I tried sticking to 3 and 1 after the first four, and found it much easier.

Can you advise me why the switching is necessary? I usually imagine that it's my slow playing that makes my choices seem better than an editor's, and that when I play it faster I'll discover the reason, but I can play the 3-1 version faster than anyone would ever want to hear the piece, and I can't imagine I'd ever get faster using the original scheme.

IMG_20210526_220014.jpg (1981.55 kB, 3264x2448 - viewed 224 times.)

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antune

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Posts: 61

Re: Fingering, 4 2 3 1 4 2 3 1 4 2 3 1...really?

Reply #1 on: May 27, 2021, 09:31:12 PM

Hi,
In my opinion, the main reason is to be able to play more melodically.
Repeating the same combination doesn’t allow that.
To shape these groups of 16th notes, it is essential to play without switching the position too often.
If you play 4-2-3-1, you’ll switch your hand position only three times, but if you repeat 3-1, you will have to change the position six times which is not practical.
I get that it feels easier to play with 3-1, but in the long term, switching the fingerings would be more helpful.
I think this is an excellent piece to practice such a technique.
I recommend trying more...

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lelle

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Posts: 2506

Re: Fingering, 4 2 3 1 4 2 3 1 4 2 3 1...really?

Reply #2 on: May 27, 2021, 10:57:03 PM

Agree with antune. Each group of 4 2 3 1 is on each beat, which helps you feel each beat as one gesture, since you shift position for the start of each new beat. It provides subtle help to musical things to finger this way instead of 3 1 3 1 3 1 3 1

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klavieronin

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Posts: 856

Re: Fingering, 4 2 3 1 4 2 3 1 4 2 3 1...really?

Reply #3 on: May 28, 2021, 01:20:43 AM

I remember feeling the same way about that fingering in the beginning, but I assure you it is worth getting used to playing like that. That sort of fingering will come up so often and in situations where 1, 3, 1, 3 just isn't practical. Stick with it. It will be worth it in the end. I promise.

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lettersquash

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Posts: 190

Re: Fingering, 4 2 3 1 4 2 3 1 4 2 3 1...really?

Reply #4 on: May 28, 2021, 09:57:03 AM

Thanks guys, I'll keep practising it like that. I tried again this morning and it was easier, and that last practice was "one of those" in other ways. I was tired, and fitting it in because my other half was watching some nonsense on TV, and I was also trying to ignore the fact that my fingernails were too long, but I was too lazy to stop and trim them!

I understand the argument that the 4 2 3 1 fingering fits the phrasing, although it is perfectly possible to play 3 1 3 1 with the very same phrasing, it's just a skill one would use in other circumstances anyway, but perhaps it is more natural.

I also have a slight reservation about the argument that one changes position three times while playing the four notes in each, which suggests the hand stays still each time then teleports to a new position instantly. In reality, the hand is moving up the keyboard to some extent through each "position", also turning, etc., to accommodate the motion. However, what I found after some 3 1 3 1 3 1 practise is that I more easily lost track of that upward motion and missed keys.

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lelle

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Posts: 2506

Re: Fingering, 4 2 3 1 4 2 3 1 4 2 3 1...really?

Reply #5 on: May 28, 2021, 10:02:03 PM

Quote from: lettersquash on May 28, 2021, 09:57:03 AM

I understand the argument that the 4 2 3 1 fingering fits the phrasing, although it is perfectly possible to play 3 1 3 1 with the very same phrasing, it's just a skill one would use in other circumstances anyway, but perhaps it is more natural.

I think what applies here is that yes, you can play the same phrase with many fingerings but some fingerings are just easier to use to get the musical result you want. One example is changing fingers on the same note in slow tempo - technically, you can use the same finger repeatedly, but you just get better results with changing fingers. The difference can sometimes be subtle, but it is there. What fingering is the most suitable, however, can sometimes differ depending on hand structure and so on.

Quote

I also have a slight reservation about the argument that one changes position three times while playing the four notes in each, which suggests the hand stays still each time then teleports to a new position instantly. In reality, the hand is moving up the keyboard to some extent through each "position", also turning, etc., to accommodate the motion. However, what I found after some 3 1 3 1 3 1 practise is that I more easily lost track of that upward motion and missed keys.

Of course, but it's easy to feel it as three large gestures since you are repeating the same, well, gesture (4 2 3 1) three times. It's not very common that you'd use 3 1 3 1 3 1 3 1 for that kind of pattern in any scenario I can envision. The point is that people use a more varied fingering because it tends to produce better musical results

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