Finding students

[obtuserecluse]

Hi, there! I've been teaching for a couple of years, but only to students that want to play non-classical repertoire. I'm craving on teaching classical piano& composition, but seem to be reached by people that have no interest in this. As I'm classically-trained myself and my main interest is this segment of musical knowledge, I feel a bit worn-out not giving technical and interpretative advice on, let's say, a Beethoven sonata. I feel I can't pass on my knowledge and it's kind of frustrating..
Are there any methods for getting in touch with students fitting in this category?
I can't say no to online lessons, but I prefer real life meetings as it's easier to track aspects of technique- relaxation, hand position, fingerings, etc.  At the moment, I'm in Cluj-Napoca, Romania, but I intend on moving to Montreal, Canada next year.
Thanks in advance, guys!

[anacrusis]

Following this thread as I am interested in suggestions on this as well. I'd start with at least having a website and putting up ads on local boards, schools, or online boards if you have anything equivalent to craigslist, and then simply choose to not take on student's who haven't reached a level where they are playing Beethoven sonatas etc.

[ranjit]

I would guess that it would be very hard to find such a student, because they likely already have a teacher, and if they wanted to switch teachers, they might just ask their teacher to refer someone.

[dogperson]

Asking my current teacher would be the last thing I would think of or want to do if I was looking for a new teacher. I suggested joining the MTNA  because they have a searchable database of teachers by ZIP Code.  Also let your tech know that you are looking for new students

Make yourself visible in the musical community.

[dogperson]

Sorry , I can’t modify my own post.  The MTNA lets you customize the type of music: therefore you could list classical piano and composition

[obtuserecluse]

Thank you, all! I will look into those suggestions and see what I can do.
Also, it's not so much about a more advanced level of playing, but finding somebody willing to commit to classical music and accumulate repertoire and technical habits, even if having close to zero playing experience.
I also taught a while ago (2015) and found it easier to reach this type of students. I had two little girls- 7 and 9 years. The 7 yo one was fantastical- played a Mozart sonatina after 4 months of study. Eager, learned ahead, did double the tasks I asked her to complete, then boom! It ended as abruptly as it started- her single mother had financial trouble and sold the piano. Refused to be helped and I haven't heard from the girl since.
Since then, no luck. I'm a bit sick of teaching Billie Eilish songs and such. I also have an eager, but out-of-control metal-head that refuses to follow scores. Grrr.

[dogperson]

I hope you don’t rule out taking adults as students.  They may never have played,  but they would definitely know if they want to study classical vs pop.

A suggestion I have heard that a couple of classical teachers do:  play something wonderful for your student at the end of their lesson:  not what they are learning but something you love.  It can be highly motivating to them. 

[obtuserecluse]

I didn't even think of excluding adult learners! Even though working with them may pose another set of difficulties altogether, the fact that they are already mature could greatly help when it comes to interpretative decisions, talking about the background of certain pieces, coming with inovative ideas, etc.
Playing for them something I love is something I'll really look forward to doing. Thank you!

[quantum]

A suggestion I have heard that a couple of classical teachers do:  play something wonderful for your student at the end of their lesson:  not what they are learning but something you love.  It can be highly motivating to them.

I've had a number of teachers that did this, and as a student it was both very motivating and enlightening as to how a teacher assembles all this knowledge and puts together a piece. 

One of my university teachers used to play large portions of his recital programs for his students within lesson.  Some of these pieces were being prepared as world premieres, so it was something very special to hear this music before it was presented to the larger community.  This teacher showed some of the challenges he encountered when learning these pieces, how he solved them, and how it can relate to the music his students were studying at the time. 

[lelle]

Does anybody know if it's effective to just put up posters all over town with information about your teaching business and your contact details?

[j_tour]

Does anybody know if it's effective to just put up posters all over town with information about your teaching business and your contact details?

IME, not really.  Those kinds of ads tend to attract mockery and graffiti, especially near a university with a large music department.

But, back in the day of print media, I did find my one jazz/blues teacher I think from a classified in the Village Voice.  He mentioned his credits with Buddy Guy and Albert King so I gave him a call.  Was studying weekly with him based on that, way up in Harlem, and he showed me a whole lot of professional "tricks" and all that, on an out-of-tune upright.  I would have been 19 or 20 at that point, so my brain was still a sponge, absorbing and learning.

I don't think either of those types of venues really exist anymore.

Get followers on Instagram and so forth.  And play a lot in public:  if you can burn ivory, people will come.  Just don't be stuck to that nerd sh*t:  a good musician can play anything (sort of), anywhere, and should.

You can weed out the hackers who want to play Billy Joel crap pretty easily.  (Yes, I know Billy Joel is an exceptional improvisational keyboardist, as was Elton John, I'm just talking about the usual crap).

[lostinidlewonder]

There are all sorts of niches when it comes to teaching piano. If you have many long term students you should be interested in the many pathway towards mastering the instrument and the many ways in which this is done for each individual. I wouldn't be teaching the piano if everyone's aim was Beethoven sonatas or Chopin or Liszt etudes, it is the various musical journeys taken which keeps the job quite interesting and forces you as an educator to constantly be on your toes to solve the most efficient pathway for the given student.

I didn't choose teaching simply to teach but to learn myself as well. I am constantly learning new ideas and approaches to particular situations and discover lots of new repertoire through my students. I would be less of a musician and teacher if all I knew was the repertoire that built me up and thus put my students all through that same procedure. You do need to know how to play lots of today's chart music and work out creative ways to develop skills through that genre. Movie music, computer games, etc etc we need to know about these thoroughly as educators I feel, that is if you work with the general public and tend to have many long term students.

I have taught some students over 20 years and seen them progress with many different individual paths. I wouldn't have traded this for teaching music at universities and only dealing with high level pianists from the get go and for limited time. The process of going through early stages through to advanced is for me at least an amazing journey to walk along side with your students and creates a flexibility to your teaching approach where you learn to be able to deal with any students musical interests in a way which ensures future expansion of their ability.

[ranjit]

I didn't choose teaching simply to teach but to learn myself as well. I am constantly learning new ideas and approaches to particular situations and discover lots of new repertoire through my students. I would be less of a musician and teacher if all I knew was the repertoire that built me up and thus put my students all through that same procedure. You do need to know how to play lots of today's chart music and work out creative ways to develop skills through that genre. Movie music, computer games, etc etc we need to know about these thoroughly as educators I feel, that is if you work with the general public and tend to have many long term students.

I just wanted to add to this, not as an educator but as a student. A large part of the reason why I started to play the piano was because I realized that with some practice, I could easily arrange pop/movie music etc. I have a feeling that many people who are musically inclined but unacquainted with classical music started out that way. I started out by wanting to play orchestral transcriptions of John Williams soundtracks on the piano.

Movie scores comprise some of the most interesting mainstream music which has been produced in the last few decades. As to why people don't go straight for classical music -- people usually like music that they are familiar with and which comes up in social interactions. Musically inclined laymen almost always gravitate towards more interesting music which is still relevant and familiar.

I see many people in these kinds of communities who are quite passionate about music and have a good ear for it, who start out attempting to play pop/movie music. I think it's also important not to denigrate mainstream music, because there is some good music out there. It's not at the level of a Chopin concerto, but there are still some very decent compositions.

I quite like this piece from a game soundtrack, for example:

[obtuserecluse]

I'm not intending to denigrate other big genres of music. My training is purely classical, I'm a more classically-oriented person, etc. I just feel I lose what I truly love- being able to pass on a legacy (in my case, the Scaramuzza one).
My interest for Beethoven sonatas, Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Rondi, etc. won't ever diminish, as I am discovering day by day new ideas, tricks, etc. I want to share with my students.
I also compose and do so heavily and with great passion. For me, this is enough. I don't want to step in a field that doesn't interest me as much just so I can 'get out of my comfort zone'. As there are researchers that specialize in just one niche of a given domain, I don't see why one's interest should be all-encompassing (as long as they don't feel the need/have the inclination).
I think the tricky thing is to identify what you want to stick to and make a decision. Rather than be all over the place and just scrap the surface of what interests me, I'd prefer to go as deep as possible and explore the unexplored.
I hope my point is transparent and won't be misunderstood. Cheers!

[obtuserecluse]

'There are all sorts of niches when it comes to teaching piano. If you have many long term students you should be interested in the many pathway towards mastering the instrument and the many ways in which this is done for each individual. I wouldn't be teaching the piano if everyone's aim was Beethoven sonatas or Chopin or Liszt etudes, it is the various musical journeys taken which keeps the job quite interesting and forces you as an educator to constantly be on your toes to solve the most efficient pathway for the given student.

I didn't choose teaching simply to teach but to learn myself as well. I am constantly learning new ideas and approaches to particular situations and discover lots of new repertoire through my students. I would be less of a musician and teacher if all I knew was the repertoire that built me up and thus put my students all through that same procedure. You do need to know how to play lots of today's chart music and work out creative ways to develop skills through that genre. Movie music, computer games, etc etc we need to know about these thoroughly as educators I feel, that is if you work with the general public and tend to have many long term students.'


With all due respect, there are a lot of classically-trained pianists that find the pleasure in teaching this kind of repertoire. (classical) It's a world in itself. The way you feel is highly personal and, unfortunately, I can't really resonate with it.
Of course, the individual journey of each student is the real satisfaction.
The Beethoven sonatas was just a generic example. Even with this, there is a lot to discover and pass on.  (and learn from teaching them)
Classical repertoire (be it overplayed warhorses or neglected jewels both from known and unknown composers) is immense. I cannot wait to center my life around it, as it's what i truly love. Won't get tired of it, I can assure you.
And I don't feel you are less of a musician if you don't immerse yourself in all big genres of music. It's absolutely O.K. to do whatever you are comfortable with as long as you and your students are evolving and enjoying it.
Anyways, thank you for sharing your personal experience.
Cheers!

[j_tour]

I hope my point is transparent and won't be misunderstood. Cheers!

I don't think your POV is misunderstood:  in fact, it's likely everyone here relates.  Everyone has their passions and their favorite things.

While some above have made eloquent points about relating to the broader needs and evolution of each student, I'd simply point out that it's a business, after all!

One has to be professional about it, or even a mercenary if one prefers that terminology.

But that doesn't demean the other points raised above about trying to integrate one's methodology to each student's individual needs:  I just only have experience "teaching" people roughly in my peer group a few things, who are interested in what I can do, within some broad parameters, more or less as a hired gun.

[obtuserecluse]

Hah, that's a pretty accurate analogy.
Of course it is, after all, a 'transaction' of sorts. I think I have have yet to learn about professionalism.  For the time being, I'm viewing this more from personal angle, but maybe, with time, I will loosen up and focus on the former aspect.

[lostinidlewonder]

....there are a lot of classically-trained pianists that find the pleasure in teaching this kind of repertoire. (classical) It's a world in itself. The way you feel is highly personal and, unfortunately, I can't really resonate with it.

Well I wrote a number of things do you think everything I said is highly personal?

1) There are all sorts of niches when it comes to teaching piano

2) Be interested in the many pathway towards mastering ... and the many ways in which this is done for each individual.

3) The various musical journeys taken which keeps the job quite interesting and forces you as an educator to constantly be on your toes to solve the most efficient pathway for the given student.

4)  I am constantly learning new ideas and approaches to particular situations and discover lots of new repertoire through my students.

5) I would be less of a musician and teacher if all I knew was the repertoire that built me up and thus put my students all through that same procedure.

6) You do need to know how to play lots of today's chart music and work out creative ways to develop skills through that genre.

7) The process of going through early stages through to advanced is for me at least an amazing journey to walk along side with your students and creates a flexibility to your teaching approach where you learn to be able to deal with any students musical interests in a way which ensures future expansion of their ability.

If you aim to teach the general public you cannot afford to feel dissapointed that a student doesn't want to play classical or is not at a level to play Beethoven sonatas. I have taught some students for years and they are no where near that level but we experience all the joys of creating and learning music. This is not being condescending either, students who do not play at an advanced level can fully experience all the joys of creating music and learning it just as much as a highly advanced pianist. Honestly I think if I couldn't feel this in beginner and intermediates I simply would not be teaching them and only specialize in the most advanced. However all the ups and downs, victories and losses, playing beautiful music and being excited about creating it, these all can be experienced fully at all levels if the student is relaxed and learning in an effective manner.

Of course, the individual journey of each student is the real satisfaction.

There are various journeys which include a mix of many different musical genre that we might not personally be deeply excited about but we should be deeply interested in the educational pathways within them and what directions can branch from them.

The Beethoven sonatas was just a generic example. Even with this, there is a lot to discover and pass on.  (and learn from teaching them)
Classical repertoire (be it overplayed warhorses or neglected jewels both from known and unknown composers) is immense. I cannot wait to center my life around it, as it's what i truly love. Won't get tired of it, I can assure you.

Your own personal journey fine but when you are teaching others to impose your own interests upon them and desire students who have the same interest as you, I just don't think this is necessary. Your ideas of expression in classical music really is not the most important part of teaching piano nor will be that of which provides you the greatest volume of workload per student.

And I don't feel you are less of a musician if you don't immerse yourself in all big genres of music. It's absolutely O.K. to do whatever you are comfortable with as long as you and your students are evolving and enjoying it.

You logically are less of a musician if you dont immerse yourself in many different genres, that doesn't make you any weaker in whatever genre you want to specialize in. As a beginner piano teacher I taught my students through my own repertoire experiences but soon realized that there was much better material to teach that I could discover and could use to effectively build my students skills up with.

The internet has provided us access with such a ridiculous amount of music that to only desire to teach classical paths (even with their vast variations in pathways) really is to me uninspiring and unchanging (variation in application of well known classical pieces based on peoples varying progress to me is not as interesting as observing the difference in progress choosing other repertoire they are more inspired with). It is highly interesting to see students develop into advanced musicians through many different musical pathways other than classical.

I have students who lean heavily towards classical music and I always encourage them to do other genres. I have students who think they hate classical music and want to avoid it so I constantly enourage them to do more classical music. I always go against my students natural tendencies if it would benefit them but at the same time satisfy their personal musical tastes. So if you have students who are not so classical minded then it is your task to make them more excited about that genre. I would say more than half the time I can help expand my students interests and get them to do more genres they initially didn't find enjoyment in. Some people might think there is limited time to do so much and you would spead yourself thinly but this really is a false fear, it needs to be actually tested and you will see you produce students who are much more well rounded and intelligent musicians.

Teaching is not only about repertoire mastery but sight reading skills. You certainly are less of a musician if your reading skills never use genres other than classical. It is not unusual for my students to do over 100 pieces a month when they are training their sight reading. How one chooses appropriate music to develop their sight reading with certainly does not require a classical path and I would agrue an exclusive classical path is not the most effective way to develop your reading skills.

[quantum]

For mainstream pop or movie music, one can teach the student to orchestrate at the piano, and I do mean orchestrate, not simply arrange or play those glossy covered books found at the front of the music store.  Part of the problem with these off-the-shelf publications is while they might represent the melody they may lack much of the imagination and creativity expressed in the original recordings.  We can take the things we learned from studying classical piano music, and bring these selections from mainstream music to life as a piano piece. 

[obtuserecluse]

To lostinidlewonder:

I don't think being a musician is quantifiable- most musicians don't cross paths and they are just fine. This 'you all should do that' or 'you are less of a... (insert whatever fits in your experience)' is, in my humble opinion, a bit of a muddy terrain, full of subjectivity. Personal imperatives are just that- personal imperatives. You use the word 'logically', but I fail to see how you can dialectically get that point across.

I didn't say I'm disappointed when a student doesn't want to play classical or doesn't have the level for an advanced piece.
I just said my current students are more inclined to other big genres of music and that I'd also want to find potential students with classical music interests. The students I teach made it clear from the get go they are more in tune with other genres (such as rock, pop, etc.) and I didn't impose myself upon them, as it's not my place. I always make small references to classical music, but if they are not interested, I won't push it!
And regarding the advanced repertoire, I mentioned I'm also expecting beginners. I'd love to get a novice student to an advanced level rather than starting from that point (advanced) and wrestling with demanding repertoire.

I wasn't thinking everything you said is highly personal, but I don't know how to selectively quote on this site.

'to only desire to teach classical paths (even with their vast variations in pathways) really is to me uninspiring and unchanging (variation in application of well known classical pieces based on peoples varying progress to me is not as interesting as observing the difference in progress choosing other repertoire they are more inspired with).'
The key combination of words is 'to me'. Some people may enjoy the paint getting dry or something and I don't think it's our place to impose our own passions and preoccupations on them (especially when they made it clear a couple of times they enjoy that certain something).

I won't impose my desires upon nobody- that's your interpretation of it. I can be as selective as I desire and that's where I draw the line for imposing those desires. When I teach, I'm more preoccupied with what methods fit each student, if they are comfortable, if they enjoy what they are doing, etc. I think I can have the minimum say in regrads to the selection process.

As I'm not a native English speaker, I lose certain nuances from the discussion, so I may not understand some points as well as I'd like to.

I'd prefer if people would stick to the main topic. Trying to determine me to change my ways (when I think is not necessary, as I'm doing no harm really) rather than helping me solve the problem in the parameters of what already is (my intense preoccupation with classical music) is not only inappropriate, but somehow condescending and dismissive...

[lostinidlewonder]

When I use the term "you" I don't mean YOU personally i mean a general use of "you". That is a way in which Australians use the term a lot which can confuse people. So when I say "you" I don't mean the personal you but the general you, someone, it could be you, it could be someone else.

I don't think being a musician is quantifiable- most musicians don't cross paths and they are just fine. This 'you all should do that' or 'you are less of a... (insert whatever fits in your experience)' is, in my humble opinion, a bit of a muddy terrain, full of subjectivity. Personal imperatives are just that- personal imperatives. You use the word 'logically', but I fail to see how you can dialectically get that point across.

Logically if you only focus on limited genres you will have less experience in the musical language that is out there. It is just a reality. It doesn't mean that people can't specialize in whatever they like and be totally happy, but like I said if you are dealing with the general public it might be a good idea to be embrace the diversity.

I just said my current students are more inclined to other big genres of music and that I'd also want to find potential students with classical music interests.

I already suggested that you can generate that interest in your students and you do not need to only look for students who initially have excitement to learn classical.

I always make small references to classical music, but if they are not interested, I won't push it!

If they are not interested it is your job to perhaps find ways to get them interested. Just because they don't like x,y,z classical pieces doesn't mean you can't find some others that might pique their interest.

I'd prefer if people would stick to the main topic. Trying to determine me to change my ways (when I think is not necessary, as I'm doing no harm really) rather than helping me solve the problem in the parameters of what already is (my intense preoccupation with classical music) is not only inappropriate, but somehow condescending and dismissive...

I fail to see how anything I have written is condescending or dismissive at all that is quite crazy talk. I already suggested that you can generate interest in classical music in your students and also gave reasons why if you are teaching the general public you should be interested in much other repertoire too. It is quite simple if you just want to teach people who are classically minded, go teach at a music school or tutor at a music university, then you can get all the specialized students you want who focus on classical piano. Otherwise you need to approach your problem more creatively and inspire classical interest in your students and that must be done while still satisfying the many other repertoire choices out there that are non classical.

[quantum]

If you want to specifically teach classical, then you need to seek out students that desire that same focus, or seek out teaching institutions that embody that same focus.  There is no use putting out a general search for students and complaining that some have little interest in classical music. 

If there are few classically oriented students in your location, you might need to start looking at online lessons.  I know you said you prefer teaching in person but there are compromises: you have a deep desire to focus on classical music, and if there are few local students that you are willing to admit into your studio you need to start looking elsewhere. 


When I was in high school there was practically nobody in that community that had an interest in classical music, yet I was furiously preparing for university auditions as a classical musician.  I had to look elsewhere for communities and people that had similar interests. 

[obtuserecluse]

To 'lostinidlewonder':
We also use 'you' (tu) in our day to day talk in the sense of 'one'. I failed to see it as such, my mistake.
Yes, of course one has more experience by immersing oneself in more genres of music, but I don't think it necessarily defines a good musician. (like in the case of enciclopedic knowledge)
Regarding generating interest, I can only go so far. I won't ever push too much. I generally see a fear of classical music, prejudice that's been built upon cultural realities, etc. Our average countryman doesn't really dive deep into something they don't know. The ethos of Romanians is built around pragmatism, around fixed cultural 'recipes' and religious belief. This infuses other aspects of life, music being one of them.
Thank you for the conversation, though. It's clear that you are an experienced musician and pedagogue and talk confidently through the lense of your realities. I will think more about the points you've made.

Quantum,
Maybe it's time for online lessons, even though it's close to impossible to guide somebody technically if I don't clearly see their shoulders, wrist, fingers, etc. And the sound could be distorted if I don't buy ultra specialised recording equipment. I'll do the best I can.

General talk- I was contacted by a man in his 40s just today. He told me he wants his son to learn music, specifically piano, but 'by ear'. This is quite a popular demand from people that are not classically-focused and it goes beyond what I am comfortable with. On top of this, people want me to prepare them for events like weddings, because the pay is pretty good. I realised that's what I'm mainly running from- I'm a nerdy 25 yo aspiring pianist (on top of that, I was diagnosed with Aspergers, so not the most pleasant person to talk to sometimes) that finds a refuge in classical music and most of my countrymen are bearish big-bellied outgoing and fun party animals that want a csardas or two under their fingers. (and no sheet music, eugh..) Ain't happening soon...
Anyways, many thanks to all of you that contributed to the discussion. I've learned some info that'll definitely come in handy. Cheers!

[lostinidlewonder]

Yes, of course one has more experience by immersing oneself in more genres of music, but I don't think it necessarily defines a good musician. (like in the case of enciclopedic knowledge)

I feel the more musical genres you are well versed with and know lots of the repertoire the more you understand the larger landscape of the creative arts attached to the piano. I know lots of songs from say Billie Ellish but I NEVER listen to such music outside of lessons lol. You should see the excitement in some students faces when I rattle off works from her or anything else they really like. The more reach you have in the entire repertoire out there the more influence you can have on students and the more vision you have as an educator. Of course this doesn't mean if you don't do it you are bad but you certainly are missing out on the trends which can disconnect you from younger generations. So the more genres you know well the better you become as an educator since you have a larger overall view of repertoire and its application towards piano education. So I would strongly argue the more you know the better you become.

Regarding generating interest, I can only go so far. I won't ever push too much. I generally see a fear of classical music, prejudice that's been built upon cultural realities, etc. Our average countryman doesn't really dive deep into something they don't know. The ethos of Romanians is built around pragmatism, around fixed cultural 'recipes' and religious belief. This infuses other aspects of life, music being one of them.

Everyone needs to be open to learn something new and discover something they didn't realize they actually enjoy. I have taught piano over 25 years now and have introduced plenty of people to classical music even those who said first they dislike it. I will not take no as a reason to stop searching and always will see if I can get them interested in some other classical music. I personally cannot reveal one single student who hasn't enjoyed some classical music and played some of it themselves. I've had some say they hate classical but that's because they learned some early Czerny or played some super boring pieces. I understand it's easier to work with someone who asks for classical music since there will be no tension trying to generate their interest, if you have Aspergers then it may be difficult for you to work in that realm.

[ranjit]

I feel the more musical genres you are well versed with and know lots of the repertoire the more you understand the larger landscape of the creative arts attached to the piano. I know lots of songs from say Billie Ellish but I NEVER listen to such music outside of lessons lol. You should see the excitement in some students faces when I rattle off works from her or anything else they really like. The more reach you have in the entire repertoire out there the more influence you can have on students and the more vision you have as an educator.

From my personal experience: Whenever I've had friends and a piano in the same room, I would ask them to request their favorite popular songs. If I had heard them before, I would try to play them by memory, on the spot. Otherwise, I would try to transcribe them immediately, and come up with a working arrangement within a few minutes, or something at the very least.

I always find it very exciting. For me, there is the thrill of learning a song super quickly (basically immediately) and playing it as well as possible, and improvising on the spot. Audiences can sense the kind of abandon with which I play, and they love it. Sometimes, there are interesting ideas in the songs which you would not come across in classical music, in the songs. For example, you might on occasion encounter a nicely placed jazzy major 7th chord, or descending left hand chromatic tenths, or whatever else it may be. I find that many of these can eventually work themselves into your subconscious vocabulary (this is obviously much more useful if you compose/improvise than if you solely perform notated works).

I also use the songs to segue into other pieces of interest. You can use snippets of classical music (or anything really), or arrange in different styles.

Anyway, there is this spark in someone's eyes which you can often see when they hear their favorite pieces being played by a musician right in front of them. They can understand it, and appreciate what you are doing, and in a sense, they are able to truly listen, because they have the background for it. You can use that to introduce a lot of different ideas, and they will step in with you unless you go too far out. Once you have their interest, you can often introduce them to different kinds of music. Billie Eilish's songs, for example, are actually decent -- it's just that those with more experienced ears will find them 'boring' and gravitate towards more interesting music. However, if you really listen closely, there is really clever production etc. going on. Of course, we would all love it if our audience can fully appreciate the depth of a Chopin ballade, but it's very rare to find people who can if you sample those who aren't pianists themselves.

If I wanted to introduce someone to classical music, that is what I would do. And I have done this with a few people. Start with their musical tastes, and create a continuous path towards more interesting music. Prime them to listen and understand it on their own.

This is one of the coolest stories I've read online. Do check it out:
https://www.rd.com/article/the-night-i-met-einstein/

I do have a gripe with a lot of classical musicians as well. Quite a lot of them do not have open ears and are conditioned to like the classical sound, while not realizing it. They don't understand or appreciate, say, Keith Jarrett, Art Tatum, or Cziffra, because it doesn't agree with their learned tastes -- whereas a lot of their music is delightfully complex and interesting. I think that there is something to get out of a lot of different styles of music. I remember someone showing me a death metal song, followed by a piano cover of the same, and it was very interesting. Pretty much every classical harmony rule (no perfect fifths etc.) has been broken, and if you can look at the evolution of music from that perspective, it's also quite fascinating.

I really think that the reason why most people who *only* listen to classical do so is because of conditioning, and not because it objectively is better than all of the other music out there. IMO.

[compline]

I really think that the reason why most people who *only* listen to classical do so is because of conditioning, and not because it objectively is better than all of the other music out there. IMO.

You may be correct  to a certain degree.  But  from my own experience with music  at a younger age,  and from a non-musical background I grew up with a lot of pop music , which I never like most of the time, and I hated the Beatles dirge songs,     though some other pop music was pleasing to my ears.
It was when we had school concerts and assembly that Classical music was played or sung, I can honestly  say that is when my interest in Classical music began.       I can appreciate  most music classical or pop if it is has quality to it.  Sadly today pop music is mostly  unlistenable .
So what I'm trying to say, from a young age I was exposed to both pop and classical music and I had more of a leaning to the classical, and not conditioned to it.   

[obtuserecluse]

În my personal experience, I began listening to classical music all by myself when my dad introduced me to a site of antique cars that had Für Elise on the background.
I searched for more pieces and was fascinated beyond belief. I listened like 10 hours a day (I'm a bit embarrased, lol) and in two days I discovered other sonatas by Beethoven, music by Chopin, Liszt, Brahms, Rachmaninoff, Ravel. It was pure love. That's why I also started playing the piano, first by myself through tutorials, then with an actual teacher.
At that time, I was listening to what my parents were- old rock.
Then, during early teenage and teenage years I was also listening to Radiohead, The Doors, Pink Floyd, The Kinks, Dire Straits (and many others) and still love them.
But lately I just can't listen to any other genre of music (apart from a handful of songs that are so emotionally powerful in their rawness, that I feel the need to visit them once in a while). Classical music has become my anchor for surviving, a coping mechanism/escapism, etc. This, literature and analysing organic and non-organic matter through my microscope. )
But yes, a certain degree of conditioning (lovers of other genres of music are also conditioned to love that certain SOUND world/atmosphere, admit it ) ) exists, but that's pretty valid for a lot, but a lot of behavioural patterns/choices in our day to day life.

[ranjit]

By no means am I trying to say that you can't have a kind of pure love for classical music. After all, I feel similarly about it (although I am extremely particular about interpretation, if I dislike an interpretation I can be completely unmoved by a piece). It doesn't have to be conditioning. After all, I discovered classical completely on my own.

[obtuserecluse]

Exactly. Interpretation plays a huge role, especially for those who are just starting to listen to classical music. My partner is really sensitive to this aspect and can't listen to low quality interpretations.