Chordal Tremolos

[bzzzzzt]

Hi, I’m learning the Piano part of Vaughan Williams’s Songs of Travel. A few of the most beautiful and significant moments have chordal tremolos (see pictures). I’m finding it difficult to get the nice smooth, shimmering effect they need. Mine are stiff, loud abs lumpy. Does anyone know any tips, exercises or resources? I checked on YouTube but the few videos I found didn’t help a great deal.

https://ibb.co/nCn64Gw
https://ibb.co/g3LRTqy
https://ibb.co/GQsP49m
https://ibb.co/TgpcGdH

[lelle]

I'm not sure there is a quick fix. Certain coordination patterns take time to develop.

The other thing is that you say they sound stiff, and that is an indication that you are stiff in some way when you play them. In that case, the stiffness will be a major roadblock for you to be able to play them as you want, and it might explain why you weren't helped by tips on YouTube. If the fundamental problem is that you are stiff, then trying to implement various tips and tricks is just going to result in you trying to use various tips and tricks while still being stiff, if that makes sense.

Do you know if you stiffen your fingers (including the thumb), hands, wrists, arms or shoulders etc in some way when you try to play this pattern? If yes, learning how to undo that will help. You can probably be helped by some slow practise where you start out feeling very relaxed and then see if you can even play one or two notes of the pattern without stiffening something? If not, you may have to start there and then work yourself up. It should feel effortless and easy to do when you get it.

I know this is not very specific advice but its hard to be more specific than this for me without knowing the details of your situation or where your general technique is at.

[quantum]

Have a listen to the following podcast/video.   Pay attention to what he is saying about rotation.  The video is about Alberti bass, but there are similarities in the type of rotation used in tremolos.  He also discusses rapid Alberti bass, which in particular has relevance in technique to the tremolos in question.

[bzzzzzt]

I'm not sure there is a quick fix. Certain coordination patterns take time to develop.

The other thing is that you say they sound stiff, and that is an indication that you are stiff in some way when you play them. In that case, the stiffness will be a major roadblock for you to be able to play them as you want, and it might explain why you weren't helped by tips on YouTube. If the fundamental problem is that you are stiff, then trying to implement various tips and tricks is just going to result in you trying to use various tips and tricks while still being stiff, if that makes sense.

Do you know if you stiffen your fingers (including the thumb), hands, wrists, arms or shoulders etc in some way when you try to play this pattern? If yes, learning how to undo that will help. You can probably be helped by some slow practise where you start out feeling very relaxed and then see if you can even play one or two notes of the pattern without stiffening something? If not, you may have to start there and then work yourself up. It should feel effortless and easy to do when you get it.

I know this is not very specific advice but its hard to be more specific than this for me without knowing the details of your situation or where your general technique is at.

That’s actually helpful, thanks. I’m usually not bad with stiffness in the other music I play, but I do develop it with this pattern - in my wrist and forearm. I’ve been playing them rather slowly and It think that’s helping.

[lelle]

That’s actually helpful, thanks. I’m usually not bad with stiffness in the other music I play, but I do develop it with this pattern - in my wrist and forearm. I’ve been playing them rather slowly and It think that’s helping.

Cool! Getting some natural finger action in there (without thinking about it/overdoing it) can also help sometimes let us know how it develops!

[j_tour]

Cool! Getting some natural finger action in there (without thinking about it/overdoing it) can also help sometimes let us know how it develops!

I fully agree:  that's gratifying to hear of a success story in the making. 

No, I had no part in any of this, but I will say the link to the Josh Wright podcast was helpful even to a Philistine like me:  I struggle with Alberti bass at extremely rapid tempos as well (although not with tremolos, but it is related in a way I didn't realize), and the breakdown of the Chopin Op. 10 no. 2 étude, including the transposition of the use of the odd fingering to the LH was brilliant, and not dissimilar to some of Cortot's exercises for different LH patterns in Chopin.

I'd say job well done, all around.

[obtuserecluse]

Hello! In my years of training, I also experienced stiffness and this is what helped:
1. When practicing fast, fingery passages, try holding your wrist with the other hand. You should feel it's suspended and relaxed.
2. Articulate from the first phalanx. Not approximately, but right from there. You should feel a slight holding sensation.
3. Monitor your elbow. It should line with your hand and not be heavy.
4. This one is quite evident- practice slowly and do circular, subtle movements from then wrist.

Hope those help! Respecting them greatly improved my playing.