Tension in Beethoven WoO 47`

[pogouldiwitz]

Hi Everyone,

I'm working on Beethoven's Sonata in F Minor, WoO 47. There's a section that includes a technique I haven't worked on before, especially at this tempo in the right hand. I tried practicing it at different tempos and I tried using more arm rotation, but I'm learning this on my own and it's possible I'm not using proper arm rotation. After working on just the section for 10-20 minutes the muscles in my hand were tense and tired for a while.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/js24KXaRqbw6TKW89

Thanks.

[lelle]

Without seeing a video of playing I can only give generic advice.

Usually things get tiring because you are tense somewhere, such as your wrist/and or hand/fingers. First of all, check that your hand and wrist and arms and shoulders are all very relaxed before starting. Then play just two or four notes of the pattern and check if your hand and wrist have become more tense. If so, that may be your main problem. Try again until you can play four notes slowly and with control without stiffening anything. The main skill you need is to consciously let go of tension in your body until it is habitual to be relaxed while you play this pattern (or any pattern for that matter). If you try to solve the problem by rotating your arm more without addressing the tension, you'll just end up rotating a tense hand and you'll still struggle, if that makes sense. Rotating, in itself, is no guaranteed solution.

[pogouldiwitz]

....The main skill you need is to consciously let go of tension in your body until it is habitual to be relaxed while you play this pattern (or any pattern for that matter). If you try to solve the problem by rotating your arm more without addressing the tension, you'll just end up rotating a tense hand and you'll still struggle, if that makes sense. Rotating, in itself, is no guaranteed solution.

Thank you for responding.

Is simply being conscious of tension enough to dissipate it over time?

 I became acquainted with this piece from the Gilels recording on DG. He played this part with incredible speed (though still in the Allegro range) and evenness. I do notice that the top voice comes out more in his rendition.

Maybe the trick to alleviate tightness it to play it more lightly overall and place more emphasis on the top notes. I notice that I still feel some tightness in the muscles between my thumb and forefinger & between my forefinger and middle finger the next day.

Though maybe it's exhaustion rather than tightness because I hadn't been playing for a while before attempting to work on this piece.

Anyhow..

[visitor]

I'm working on all three of these , there is some special attention needed to pull off what you describe in that first mov of the 2nd sonata (my focus in summer is the third one while I polish up the e flat and f minor  having taken a break after juries on these )
I'll give it some thought and try to get together a piano next week. And maybe record a few things I do

Good piece ,glad to see someone on here working this one

[pogouldiwitz]

I'm working on all three of these , there is some special attention needed to pull off what you describe in that first mov of the 2nd sonata (my focus in summer is the third one while I polish up the e flat and f minor  having taken a break after juries on these )
I'll give it some thought and try to get together a piano next week. And maybe record a few things I do

Good piece ,glad to see someone on here working this one

I've loved Nos. 1 & 2 ever since I heard the Gilels recording on DG. I noticed that when he plays it, the top voice is brought out more. Maybe that's a solution? The muscles between my thumb and forefinger are still tired the next day (I decided to not practice much today). I'm probably using too much finger action and not utilizing the momentum from rotating the forearm enough.

[quantum]

Have a listen to the following podcast.  Pay attention to what is being said about rotation.

[lostinidlewonder]

It is important that your thumb is light and that it causes your middle finger to react with it, you are using the thumb to pull the other finger down with it as well as using the upper note to help push the chord back up. Play the passage without the thumb and then play it without the middle note, it should feel the same so then you set up playing them both together without any different feel. You can experiment with those removed notes and notice what causes your tension.

[pogouldiwitz]

Thanks very much. Yeah, it took a few days for the muscle soreness in hands (especially between the thumb/forefinger and forefinger/middle finger) to dissipate. I'd get a teacher, but a good one is hard to find. I need a teacher who can demo whatever he/she is describing. I'd really benefit from someone who had real insight developing efficient technique. I was more developed musically than technically when I was taking lessons as a teen and i don't think my teacher put enough emphasis on developing technique. She had small hands and I'm not sure how good her own playing was.

[lelle]

Thank you for responding.

Is simply being conscious of tension enough to dissipate it over time?

 I became acquainted with this piece from the Gilels recording on DG. He played this part with incredible speed (though still in the Allegro range) and evenness. I do notice that the top voice comes out more in his rendition.

Maybe the trick to alleviate tightness it to play it more lightly overall and place more emphasis on the top notes. I notice that I still feel some tightness in the muscles between my thumb and forefinger & between my forefinger and middle finger the next day.

Though maybe it's exhaustion rather than tightness because I hadn't been playing for a while before attempting to work on this piece.

Anyhow..

I don't think its enough to be conscious of it for it to dissipate on its own, if that's what you mean. But I think the first step to preventing tension is to notice a) when you tense up, and b) where there is chronic tension you previously were unaware of. In either of these cases it's difficult to do anything about the tension if you don't even know it's there.

When you do notice yourself tensing up, you have a chance to try to do whatever you did again, while trying to do it without tightening up. You sort of practise saying "no" to the thing you habitually do. Tensing up is an act of doing a thing, not tensing up is an act of not doing that thing, if that makes any sense.

There are many tricks that can alleviate tightness, so if you find something that works for you, I'd say go for it. For me personally, I have noticed that tips & tricks rarely help tackling the fundamental problem, which is why I focus more on being conscious of tension and learning how to relax your body better regardless of what you do.