Do today's performers care too much about avoiding wrong notes?

[anacrusis]

This is something I reflect on sometimes. If you listen to old live recordings, I feel on average the big names back then played more wrong notes than the big names today. Yet at the same time, I often find older recordings to bemore exciting, on average, than new recordings.

This does not, of course, mean that I think more wong notes equals more exciting playing, but at the same time I wonder if pianists today spend more of their focus on making sure they don't make mistakes, and that something about the excitement and daring of the old school pianists is lost in the process.

For students, it can be tempting to use the idea of "I don't care about mistakes, I prioritize going for it and making it exciting" as an excuse for not practising or developing your technique properly, and this is not what I mean. I think the giants back then were very capable of playing everything, but in the heat of the moment they just slightly missed the right key. I think this is different from making a mistake due to not feeling in physical command or at ease at the instrument, which is more likely to be the case with students.

I think seeking to develop a solid, clean technique can coexist with taking risks, daring, and paying the price of slightly more wrong notes for the reward of more exciting playing - assuming you can play everything clean should you choose to. At least that's what I imagine is within the realm of possiblity for today's top professionals.

What do you guys think? Do professional pianists focus a bit too much on playing cleanly today, at the expense of other qualities? Or is this all in my head? 

[ranjit]

Imo yes, and I blame competitions and recordings.

[brogers70]

Somebody, I think, said that there's a big difference in the sound of a mistake made through fear or lack of preparation and a mistake made from elan.

[lostinidlewonder]

It's quite easy nowadays to produce a recording without errors but it is not a "live" performance. I have never attended any piano solo live concert where there wasn't a least one mistake in each challenging piece, but have heard plenty recordings where all errors are edited out with retakes or software. There are also recordings that have been sped up, people do it to try and impress I see that on YouTube all the time which is quite pathetic.

I don't understand the idea of risk taking and errors, you take risks and work hard to contain errors that may arise. I don't think it's ever a good idea to play wildly just for the sake of it but not spent ample time working out how you control that.

Anyone who is severely disturbed by a single wrong note or small smudge in a performance has a mental problem. You can't help those people sometimes. Some people approach piano solo world with recordings and they only have their favorite recordings, small minded people, you can't help them either.

Note perfect playing to me doesn't improve a performance a huge deal. Recordings of computers are utterly lifeless and boring even though all the notes are correct. I think also listening to edited human recordings where all errors are masked or removed is also bad. When you hear these pianists live you can be set up for disappointment. I certainly experienced that after being impressed by recordings then hearing the live pianist only to be dissappointed. Certainly a difference between live and recording artists these days.

[perfect_pitch]

Maybe pianists today should start 'finger-synching'.

Just kidding - I say that to raise a point about how 'lip-synching' and 'auto-tune' is ruining the music industry.

Do you think there is more challenge for pianists these days to try and make a name for themselves? I mean China alone apparently has 150 million children/teenagers learning violin or piano - that number is astounding in the percentage of the population learning an instrument.

I guess it's also a balance. Imagine a pianist who can play the piece emotionally convincing and has every single right note. How many mistakes could he get away with before the piece loses appeal. One note won't sully it, but maybe 5 wrong notes, 10 notes might...

I don't heavily edit my videos. I'll admit, there are times when there are small slips and I hope that nobody really cares about the odd wrong note here and there. Maybe that's why my videos however aren't getting as many views as other people on YouTube.

Should I have everything note perfect?

[ranjit]

If you look at music as a means of expression, there is something different between the act of someone talking to you, or even giving a speech in public, and listening to a recording of the same. The reactions of the audience somehow affect what they are saying, and it is a shared experience. Ideally, this is what one would expect from a performer. However, if the performer is a machine, so to speak, I would much rather listen to a recording.

[lostinidlewonder]

I don't heavily edit my videos. I'll admit, there are times when there are small slips and I hope that nobody really cares about the odd wrong note here and there. Maybe that's why my videos however aren't getting as many views as other people on YouTube.

Should I have everything note perfect?

You need to be a younger woman and show some cleavage and leg, then your view counts explode.

[lelle]

Totally agree. I wish modern performers took more risks. I have heard many of the top names today live and it was fine, very professional. But I often long for that extra spark, that fire of life blood that people like Rubinstein, Cortot and Horowitz had.

[anacrusis]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, glad I'm not the only one to think this way. In fact, I feel this is rather widespread among audiences, and that begs the question, why do pianists still care so much about playing cleanly at the expense of other qualities? Surely, even pianists appreciate other pianists who make slightly more errors but truly go for it?

[dogperson]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, glad I'm not the only one to think this way. In fact, I feel this is rather widespread among audiences, and that begs the question, why do pianists still care so much about playing cleanly at the expense of other qualities? Surely, even pianists appreciate other pianists who make slightly more errors but truly go for it?

I find the piano community, as a whole, to be very critical of an occasional missed note—- and I’m not talking about a slew of them just a small number. 

[j_tour]

Surely, even pianists appreciate other pianists who make slightly more errors but truly go for it?

No, I do not find they do.  It's part craftsmanship, and part "I learned it the hard way, so go back to school, you young whippersnapper!"

But among general audiences, it's more that they don't know what to listen for, so they can easily detect various ephemera and pretend to advance a rank in their cultural capital.

Like Mme Verdurin in Proust, with her carefully staged "concerts" while following along with the score.

"I didn't hear one wrong note!  Herbie Hancock is a genius!"

And so forth.

[ranjit]

No, I do not find they do.  It's part craftsmanship, and part "I learned it the hard way, so go back to school, you young whippersnapper!"

But among general audiences, it's more that they don't know what to listen for, so they can easily detect various ephemera and pretend to advance a rank in their cultural capital.

Agreed. The actual pianists have trauma psych, and the plebeians want something to one-up the performer.

[lelle]

Agreed. The actual pianists have trauma psych, and the plebeians want something to one-up the performer.

What do you mean with trauma psych?

[ranjit]

What do you mean with trauma psych?

I'm referring to the years spent with imposter syndrome etc. We've struggled, so you've got to pay your dues too. It's not always antagonistic, but it's usually there nevertheless.

[anacrusis]

Based on my years in music college, I'd say the majority of musicians I have met would benefit from some therapy 

[lelle]

I'm referring to the years spent with imposter syndrome etc. We've struggled, so you've got to pay your dues too. It's not always antagonistic, but it's usually there nevertheless.

I'm sorry but I still don't follow (genuinely curious though). Can you clarify?

[cantilena]

You need to be a younger woman and show some cleavage and leg, then your view counts explode.

Unfortunately, this seems to be the case, and probably always has been. People are attracted to attractive people, whether they're playing the piano, acting, or whatever.

[virginofthepiano]

Infact, i observe that today's concert pianist are far better at technic in general to dead pianist. Cziffra was a monster in his day but it looks like any serious performer nowadays could play faster than he.

[thalbergmad]

Infact, i observe that today's concert pianist are far better at technic in general to dead pianist. Cziffra was a monster in his day but it looks like any serious performer nowadays could play faster than he.

Far better at "technic" but far worse at music.

[perfect_pitch]

Infact, i observe that today's concert pianist are far better at technic in general to dead pianist. Cziffra was a monster in his day but it looks like any serious performer nowadays could play faster than he.

I would actually believe that of all the pianists that are unfortunately dead, Cziffra might be one of the only people who could still hold a candle to any pianist alive. His technical abilities were phenomenal, and easily on par with Hamelin whose technical AND musical mastery are quite unmatched.

I would be surprised if anyone these days could out-do Cziffra, but he would be one of the only ones I would put in that category.

[lelle]

Far better at "technic" but far worse at music.

Well said!

[ranjit]

Are they actually far better at technique than Cziffra though? Maybe Hamelin, but if you see Yuja Wang playing any of Cziffra's arrangements, she clearly struggles at the end where it gets hard.

[thalbergmad]

I recall Tamas Vasary commenting about "nobody takes chances any more", and he has a point.

The likes of Wang and many others of her ilk seem to have built a reputation on highly edited recordings and in the concert hall, they will play wrong notes.

I doubt if Wang would consider playing Godowsky or Alkan in public and she is probably nowhere near mechanically proficient to take on some of Tausig's transcriptions. All we hear is a regurgitation of the same old stuff.

Thal

[anacrusis]

I recall Tamas Vasary commenting about "nobody takes chances any more", and he has a point.

The likes of Wang and many others of her ilk seem to have built a reputation on highly edited recordings and in the concert hall, they will play wrong notes.

I doubt if Wang would consider playing Godowsky or Alkan in public and she is probably nowhere near mechanically proficient to take on some of Tausig's transcriptions. All we hear is a regurgitation of the same old stuff.

Thal

I don't doubt her proficiency at all, but I agree with the lack of risk taking. It's interesting to turn on a Yuja recording and a recording of the old masters and hear just what a difference there is in purely musical qualities.

[virginofthepiano]

Are they actually far better at technique than Cziffra though? Maybe Hamelin, but if you see Yuja Wang playing any of Cziffra's arrangements, she clearly struggles at the end where it gets hard.

Yeah maybe they are not far bettar than him but the amount of pianist that can play at his speed is getting common. Just look at Kissin feux follats...I do not know of any piano player in old times capable of that.

[rmchenry]

Yeah maybe they are not far bettar than him but the amount of pianist that can play at his speed is getting common. Just look at Kissin feux follats...I do not know of any piano player in old times capable of that.

I listen to Arrau's version which shows up  everything lacking in Kissin's version no matter how fast he plays it.
Arrau's teacher was a pupil of Liszt.

[lostinidlewonder]

Roger Woodward told me a story about Arrau, when he one day went to a music school he heard a student play that Liszt etude so fast he was very depressed. He worked hard to try to increase his speed. But Arrau's musicality is just godlike, who cares about speed, it seems though what we lack we always want, Arrau surely did not lack anything in the musical department and is what made him such a legend.

[lelle]

Arrau could play damn fast though. Listen to this from 24:13:

Or any of the other preludes with fast runs for that matter.

[lostinidlewonder]

Sure but the Liszt Etude is very difficult to do fast, some people do it lightning fast compared to Arrau, this point is what depressed him.

[rubens99]

I can't speak for other performers, but I only care about wrong notes when recording. When performing live, I'm too busy worrying about potential memory slips, even when the piece is well-learned.

[nightwindsonata]

I can't speak for other performers, but I only care about wrong notes when recording. When performing live, I'm too busy worrying about potential memory slips, even when the piece is well-learned.

To be honest, that is similar to my mindset, though instead of worrying about memory slips (because the more you think about them the more likely they are to happen), I concentrate on phrasing, dynamic shape, narrative development, keeping a clean and elongated legato, etc. When recording, I am much more concerned about wrong notes and clarity of texture, and ironically, I think that makes my playing worse when I'm self-consciously performing to a camera than to an audience; either way, I find myself doing things in the performance (both good and bad, such as creating complex tiers of dynamic levels and phrases and rushing from nerves) that I don't do when running through the piece in a practice room immediately before.

[anacrusis]

Fun to see this topic still going

I think that ironically, the harder you try to play well, the worse you play. And consequently, the more you let go of the attachment to playing well and just play, the more relaxed you'll be mentally and physically and the better you'll play.

But it can be difficult sometimes. Lots of ego and self-worth questions that might need examination.

[jititu71]

I think, said that there's a big difference in the sound of a mistake made through fear or lack of preparation and a mistake made from elan.