Doubts with taubmann approach teacher

[ivorycherry]

Hey all, hope you guys are all doing well.
I'm searching for teachers since I just recently moved and found one who teaches with the "Taubmann approach". She's studied directly with Dorothy Taubmann and she knows her stuff. I had a trial lesson with her today.the approach is very interesting and I have very mixed feelings. She told me that fingers shouldn't play at all but that its all forearm rotation that makes the play. This and a bunch of other of her advice really perplexed me and it seems mostly everything I am doing is wrong. Since it was a trial lesson, I asked her to briefly explain a lot of different techniques like octaves and how to play a note and I don't really feel like explaining all of it right now. like I said before I have really mixed feelings about this and doubt this thing's legitimacy. It's really interesting to me. Have you all ever had experience with this thing? Is it legit?

Thanks a lot,
Alex

also sorry if the post is unclear just ask me to clarify something if you need me to and I'll do it tomorrow, just really tired right now.

[lostinidlewonder]

Personally I don't see anything special with the approach, it is good to know about if you never considered the choreography of your hands.

I have had disagreements in music pedagogy groups with a number of the Taubman exponents on fingering ideologies. It seems because studying the approach is so expensive they defend their ideas to the death even if there are better solutions. They sometimes have a specific ideology over the the hands which I find stifling and not all encompassing. Fingers do play but Taubman teacher might fear you twist or rotate wrongly, or isolated finger movements are inefficient, some of the fingering solutions for specific pieces from Taubman exponents have not left me very impressed at all. Twisting your wrist is generally a poor solution and Taubman is does not exclusively have insight into this. They are obsessed about rotations, micro rotations and using them to control the fingers, I mean it is a very useful tool but it is not the one and only tool. Taubman's approach vs isolated finger techniques is to oppose it but this removes useful tools and also miscontrues how one would play something because you are considering it in terms of rotation where it has little to do with that. This is perhaps why when confronted with the idea that all fingers should be accompanied with a concept of rotation sounds odd (and it really is odd).

[ranjit]

I think it's useful as an alternative perspective once you have some foundational technique. Their points about ergonomic movements are well taken. However, I have found that they clearly don't tell the whole story. Having felt improvement in my "finger strength" (which I believe is primarily strength and better coordination of the flexors), I'm quite sure that it is important, and that not everything in the world of piano boils down to gravity and rotation. I can't imagine someone at the level of a concert pianist only using the Taubman approach, it simply wouldn't work!

[ivorycherry]

Thanks for replying guys. Do you guys think it would be beneficial to take some lessons with her for some time? I honestly believe in the traditional Eastern European school  a lot more than in this. It’s really confusing me.

[ranjit]

Probably, if you're already at a high level. The Eastern European school, as far as I know, emphasizes individual finger motion, which is fine but needs to be done carefully. So studying with a Taubman teacher may make you aware of certain things a traditional teacher may not.

[lelle]

I hear the taubman approach at least has a track record of helping people with pain/injuries solve their issues. But some of their ideas, at least as presented by certain teachers, strike me as dogmatic or sometimes dubious. I don't know the method though so I feel I need to try it before commenting any further.

Josh Wright interviewed a Taubman guy a while ago, which I found interesting and cleared up at least some things:

[ranjit]

I hear the taubman approach at least has a track record of helping people with pain/injuries solve their issues.

My personal view is that it's pretty much only useful for that purpose, in that it delineates a set of movements which are very safe. However, it's wrong in its claim that all piano technique falls in that category imo.

[dogperson]

I’m not sure how anyone can develop strong personal opinions about Taubman technique by only watching sn online video or two or reading a post or two.  I had a teacher who felt like her Taubman study was better than her master’s degree training at a conservatory —- snd she was not talking about pain.

I have not been able to test that theory as there are no local teachers anywhere near me, but I have nit reached a conclusion, I know there is usually a week long summer symposium, but attending during COVID doesn’t sound like a good idea.

Without direct experience, how has anyone formed a valid strong opinion?

[ranjit]

I had a teacher who felt like her Taubman study was better than her master’s degree training at a conservatory —- snd she was not talking about pain.

A lot of times at conservatory, professors simply do not teach technique, so in that way it's entirely believable.

[ivorycherry]

I’m not sure how anyone can develop strong personal opinions about Taubman technique by only watching sn online video or two or reading a post or two.  I had a teacher who felt like her Taubman study was better than her master’s degree training at a conservatory —- snd she was not talking about pain.

I have not been able to test that theory as there are no local teachers anywhere near me, but I have nit reached a conclusion, I know there is usually a week long summer symposium, but attending during COVID doesn’t sound like a good idea.

Without direct experience, how has anyone formed a valid strong opinion?

I’m just asking to see if anyone has had experience with it and what they think of it. I don’t have a well formed opinion, but mixed feelings. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with speculating though.

The idea of not playing keys with fingers but with forearm rotation is just weird and I doubt it’s possible to play like that at a concert level. And rules like not even being able to use a four finger for an octave momentarily as said by the teacher strikes me.

[dogperson]

I’m just asking to see if anyone has had experience with it and what they think of it. I don’t have a well formed opinion, but mixed feelings. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with speculating though.

The idea of not playing keys with fingers but with forearm rotation is just weird and I doubt it’s possible to play like that at a concert level. And rules like not even being able to use a four finger for an octave momentarily as said by the teacher strikes me.

I think you can infer your answer: you have a lot of responses but little direct experience.

But then, I also don’t see how you can decide on the usefulness after one lesson. 

[ivorycherry]

But then, I also don’t see how you can decide on the usefulness after one lesson. 

That’s why I’m asking because i know there’s a lot of experienced people on this forum probably including you and the others that have replied. Let’s not waste time on these kinds of posts anymore.

[ranjit]

I’m just asking to see if anyone has had experience with it and what they think of it. I don’t have a well formed opinion, but mixed feelings. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with speculating though.

It's a bit of a mixed bag. I have heard from a pianist that it looked like a collection of scattered intuitive methods which pianists use, and that it looks useful. I have also read some saying that they are ruining pianists with their jargon. My personal feeling is that once you already have a good technique, it's good to consolidate a lot of things. However, certain things need to be developed first, coordination as well as physiological things such as strength and dexterity of certain muscle groups, which Taubman practitioners are often unfairly against. I would certainly not wish to learn the basics from a Taubman teacher, but would try to apply what they have to say, because a number of things there have merit. A lot of it doesn't seem new, but that doesn't mean it's worthless. Also, with some of the things you mentioned, they start out with exaggerated movements and later on move to something more reasonable. My personal experience is that I picked up a few wrong things by trying to go for a very loose approach which doesn't seem to use any strength; however I'm still a relative beginner so it may not translate to your case.

The video with Robert Durso has an explanation of double rotational scales, so you should check that out if you haven't already.

Honestly, I would trust what I see in a similar situation. Ask her to play with the techniques as she uses them in practice (not what she shows to beginners) and then see whether the movements look efficient. Can she actually play virtuosic pieces?

[lostinidlewonder]

I’m not sure how anyone can develop strong personal opinions about Taubman technique by only watching sn online video or two or reading a post or two.  I had a teacher who felt like her Taubman study was better than her master’s degree training at a conservatory —- snd she was not talking about pain.

It's not a good idea to make guesses at what people know. Does one need to purchase the over priced courses to have a proper opinion? It is like saying, you don't understand a particular religion if you have never been a member of it , heck we don't have time for all that, one can formulate valid opinions other ways.

Without direct experience, how has anyone formed a valid strong opinion?

Then how dare you consider the sun hot, you need to go there and touch it before you may state that with confidence!! Strawman? Sure because the logic is so poor.

[anacrusis]

Honestly, I would trust what I see in a similar situation. Ask her to play with the techniques as she uses them in practice (not what she shows to beginners) and then see whether the movements look efficient. Can she actually play virtuosic pieces?

Stuff like this would at least sell me on Taubman a bit more. I don't think I have seen Edna Golandsky actually play anything though I have searched. It's great that it helps people with injuries but it would also be great to see that its leading exponents can play.

[ranjit]

Stuff like this would at least sell me on Taubman a bit more. I don't think I have seen Edna Golandsky actually play anything though I have searched. It's great that it helps people with injuries but it would also be great to see that its leading exponents can play.

Yeah, that would be nice. From what I've seen, they do tend to have some principles which help prevent injury, but they don't develop technique ground-up very well, or at least I haven't heard of any cases where someone acquired great technical facility through the Taubman method, I've only heard of pianists fixing issues with it. I personally think that practitioners fall for the fallacy that their method can fix technical issues in actual pianists, ergo it's better. However, from what I've seen of the method it looks to me to be more of an ironing out of an already developed technique.

[scientistplayspiano]

Forearm rotation is very important, however, everyone needs to find his or her own approach. You look at Horowitz, he barely moves his arm, but the tone is so rich. Of course, his piano is specially tuned also.

Here is a video about play piano with ease, you can see the usefulness of the technique.