Need help: Discovered I can play piano intuitively: How to develop it ?

[PrimeAlpha]

Greetings fellow pianists.

Not so long ago, I discovered I have a gift: I can play piano intuitively. Somewhat out of the blue, with no prior training in piano or music, I discovered I can play any song I know! After playing for a month, people who do not know me were asking me how many years I have been playing...

I need help in developing this. Most notably, I want to know why I can instantaneously recognize harmony and reproduce it (I can "feel" the harmony very precisely and instantly), but melody is played by me using a more soft version of "feeling", kind of guessing the interval, and not always 100% precise, and not instantaneous like my recognition of harmony.

I would like to share with you my experiences, and my sticking points, and hear what you have to comment about it.

I'm still learning about all the theory behind music, so I'll try to relate my experiences and what I feel using whta I already know about music.

I'm not as trained in the arts of music as many of you, so I don't know what in my experiences is important and what is not... so if I lengthend some part of the post unnecessarily, my apologies in advance.

A little background about me:

I'm 27 now. I think music was always in me. I recall that as a little child, I was always playing with songs in my mind and making new ones. At age 20, I discovered I can intuitively play the guitar (easily accompanying any song built on the major scale). My guess is, i developed a sense of harmony after listening to songs all my life.

At age 26, after learning a little bit of theory (which taught me little new, since I apparently developed an understanding of most western theory, especially major scale, scale degrees, and what I called "common exceptions", which turned out to be the harmonic/melodic minor scales, and "secondary dominant" chords), I was sitting in front of the piano when suddenly many things in my mind connected together, and I found I was able to play any song I know, knowing which keys on the piano to press to reproduce the song. I was able to harmonically reproduce the song and "spice it up" with ease (my favourite spice, I learned, is called an "Add 2 Chord").

This ability was at first limited to the C major key on the piano; I learned later that many other intuitives also start with this scale. After a very short time of memorizing the other keys, I was able to harmonically accompany any song I know, on any key.

Melody is another story...

(note: what I mean by "unable to recognize the melody" is not that I can't remember it: I remember it perfectly. However, unlike instantly knowing which keys to press to reproduce harmony, I cannot do the same with melody: As opposed to knowing exactly which keys to press for the next harmony, I "guess" how higher or lower I have to go on the keyboard, not always 100% accurately)

At first, on the C major key, I noticed that most of the melody notes were on the white keys only (I know, I know, a major "DUH" to any advanced pianist, but I was only beginning...), so this provided a form of "error correction" when playing melody.

Reproducing the melody on other keys is lisghly more difficult, but I attained reasonable skill in this.

What bugs me though, is that I can instantaneously "feel" the scale degree, the harmony (what you guys call I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii, and all the commmon secondaries, etc) with 100% precision, but melody feels more to me like "educated guessing of intervals", what I mean is, knowing how higher or how lower to go next, as opposed to knowing EXACTLY what notes to press next, as I do with harmony.

When I'm thinking and playing harmony, I know EXACTLY what to press next.

When I'm playing melody, it's like another process in my mind, not as precise as the one for harmony. Disregarding the "error correction" the C major key provides, I still find that even on this key, I cannot instantaneously feel what keys for the melody I have to press as opposed to the chords (harmony).

My questions:

Is this a natural phenomena among musicians? To be able to instantly recognize harmony, but play melody as a series of intervals ?

Is there any musician here that can instantaneously "feel" the melody note and where it belongs on the scale ? Talking with some fellow musicians, I learn that several of them can themselves feel harmony instantly, but not so for melody.

After playing for several months now, my harmony recognition (and immediate reproduction on the piano) is the same as it was (extremely precise), and my ability to reproduce melody has improved, but I still feel like I "guessing", where as when I'm reproducing the harmony, I'm "Knowing". This is really bothering me... any comments ?

I learned of a term called "contour". It seems my mind catalogues harmonies as their respectives selves (thereby instantly feeling and recognizing them), but melody as a "contour", the individual notes of which I cannot instantaneously feel... any comments ?

Is it possible to train myself to "feel" the individual notes of the melody like I do the harmony ?

I can instantly recognize the bass note of the song... because it's basically the base harmony note on which the chord is built on. For the life of me, I can't understand why my mind can't do the same with the melody notes ?!?...

Tempo seems to have nothing to do with it. Play me a new song at 10 times it's tempo, I'll recognize the harmony.

Is harmony recognition easier because it's a series of notes together that have a distinct "feel" in a given key? I read something of the sorts on many theory sites, that each harmony has a specific "function" in a key. But so do the melody notes! (tonic, dominant, etc). I couldn't find a reason for my lack of instant melody recognition.

That's all for now... I hope I'm clear enough.

Any help and all comments are greatly appreciated!

Good night,

Prime Alpha

[kilini]

I've never really tried this. I -might- have some intuitive gifts, as I finished 6 grades in about three months, and am now on the Beethoven sonates (4 months by the 13th). But I never noticed it on the scale you did. Shrug. And I have no idea about the theory, as I have never really taken any theory classes.

P.S: I'm half your age. 13. 

[aquariuswb]

Is harmony recognition easier because it's a series of notes together that have a distinct "feel" in a given key? I read something of the sorts on many theory sites, that each harmony has a specific "function" in a key. But so do the melody notes! (tonic, dominant, etc). I couldn't find a reason for my lack of instant melody recognition.

Welcome to the board! To answer this question, I'd have to say yes. The reason, I think, is this: with harmony, you have many options, and your playing by "feel" is very much a creative process; picking out a melody, rather, is an objective task that necessitates that "feel," but for us mere mortals, we may need more tools at our disposal (ie. lots and lots of practice, and probably some more knowledge of theory than you have at this point).

Take out the guitar for a second. Put on any major-scale rock song in your CD player that has a melody and chord progression. If your gift is what I think it is, you will have no problem playing harmony along with the verse's melody, no? Now do the same thing a second time. I am guessing that what you play the second time will NOT be identical to what you played the first time, but both sounded "right" -- that is, both were harmonizations that work with the progression.

Okay, now do the same thing ("jam" with the verse twice), but this time start on the same note both times. I bet that the second time around, by the second or third note you will already be playing something different than the first time around.

If my theories are correct (and if I'm wrong with what I wrote above, don't read on), you have what I have: a natural good ear. I developed this further by playing in rock / jam bands in high school (I play guitar too), and just messing around, playing behind whatever music I had on my CD player. The more I did this, the better I got at picking out the melodies -- which I also had trouble with at first. More knowledge of theory WILL help you if you apply it. You should even learn more about harmony, which should come easy to you as you already have a natural ear for these things; but the theory behind the harmony will help you further, and will also help you pick out melodies better. In fact, you'll probably find that much of what you learn you already knew -- just in your own intuitive way. This is what happened to me, and I was hesistant to pursue the theoretical knowledge at first because I thought I could just intuit all of it.

Well, there are very, very few who can intuit all of it. I have one such friend who is, quite frankly, a freak of nature. He never took a lesson in his life, yet is the best drummer and the best bassist I know, period. He's never taken a piano lesson in his life, but I swear he sounds like Chick Corea. NASTY guitarist, too... the thing is, I've seen him pull out all sorts of crazy chords and harmonies that I looked up later and turned out to be really advanced, but he has no idea what they are called; he just "gets" it.

I don't know you, but judging by the fact that you can't pick up the melodies as well as the harmonies, I'd say you are more like me -- gifted, perhaps very gifted, but not FREAKISHLY so... which means my advice for you is: a) keep playing / practicing / jamming / listening, and b) learn more theory and harmony.

I don't mean to sound pompous or condescending in this post (sorry if it came off that way), it's just that I have been playing music all my life and your post intrigues me because it reminds me of myself.

Please: do not waste this talent. Work at it, but most importantly enjoy it. It is probably too late in the game for you to become a "virtuoso classical pianist" (not that I got the impression that this was your goal, but it seems that most people on this forum have this goal), but you could certainly get real good, probably real fast. I don't know where your interests lie, but I personally recommend looking into jazz, considering what you have shared about yourself.

Thanks for the post, hopefully you'll stick around! I'm pretty new myself here actually, and have found most people on this forum quite helpful in many ways.

Peace,
     Mike

[puma]

   Mike pretty much said it all, but I just wanted to share a few things myself: I discovered, when I was much younger, that I had a knack for figuring out harmony, too.  It came into being when I started with the guitar - armed with the knowledge of just a few simple chords I was able to play the skeletons of almost any song I wanted!  And I found singing over it easy as well.  Only recently did I try to bring this to the piano - which I found easy to do as well.  As with melody, like Mike said, theory will help.  Maybe a college course in Musicianship will help with the sightreading and ear training skills.  Definitely find a teacher who is to your liking - I've found if you find a teacher who's gifted in other ways it can really help - since they can teach you the things you may not "inherently" know.  Sometimes people flock to their own.
   Definitely take the time to develop.  It is hard work, but you will be missing huge pieces of the puzzle without developing it.  I coasted on some of my skills for a while until I realized I wanted to learn how to solo - really solo - so I've been working on that.  But you'll realize other things may come to you just as easy as it first did, or maybe they won't - don't get discouraged if other aspects of music take longer than the harmony which comes to you easy.  Like Mike said, there are a few freaks of nature where everything comes together, immediately, and BAM - but that is rare.  Even they have to work at it - look at Mozart.  His father made him spend hours on 4-part harmony every day as a kid.  If everyone had the same rigorous training ... but that's another story.

[ted]

PrimeAlpha:

I was just driving to work when I thought of a most interesting question to ask you. How do you proceed in order to harmonise (i.e. fit chords to) a melody line completely new to you, that is to say just a succession of bare notes, which you have never heard before in any harmonised form ? Do you instantly "know" which harmonies to play in that case, or do alternatives exist with consequent mental fiddling ?

There is obviously a difference, neither for the better or for the worse, between someone who has a very good aural memory, has heard thousands of conventional harmonisations and whose unconscious pops up the "most likely chord for the job", and somebody who is in a continual state of experimentation, even if aurally calculated.

I must say, I am unable to grasp, for instance, why you would always be absolutely certain which chord to use unless the result be within a specified style or idiom and therefore such and such a chord may be much more "likely" than another.

Yours is an interesting post, which conceals some deep aspects of music. There is something going on here which is extremely subtle and I haven't quite put my finger on it yet.

[lostinidlewonder]

I need help in developing this. Most notably, I want to know why I can instantaneously recognize harmony and reproduce it (I can "feel" the harmony very precisely and instantly), but melody is played by me using a more soft version of "feeling", kind of guessing the interval, and not always 100% precise, and not instantaneous like my recognition of harmony.
.....
(note: what I mean by "unable to recognize the melody" is not that I can't remember it: I remember it perfectly. However, unlike instantly knowing which keys to press to reproduce harmony, I cannot do the same with melody: As opposed to knowing exactly which keys to press for the next harmony, I "guess" how higher or lower I have to go on the keyboard, not always 100% accurately)

If you can strike the notes of harmony right, but miss melody perhaps you have good grip on common scale/chordal shapes and moving in accordance to the chord progression in the piece. In that case I guess your ear is more tuned into the support of the music rather than the melodic lines of the peice. Which makes sense to me since there is generally less change in chordal progression per bar than there is in melodic lines. In this case you can haphazzardly and really randomly play any notes so long they are a part of the scale/chord being used. That is basic improvisation.

What bugs me though, is that I can instantaneously "feel" the scale degree, the harmony (what you guys call I-ii-iii-IV-V-vi-vii, and all the commmon secondaries, etc) with 100% precision, but melody feels more to me like "educated guessing of intervals", what I mean is, knowing how higher or how lower to go next, as opposed to knowing EXACTLY what notes to press next, as I do with harmony.

This again highlights to me your good feel for the shape and form at the keyboard. Because chordal progression has very obvious shape and form and effects the hand, the brain can register a more obvious memory. Melody is a much more subtle movement, and for the mind to understand it you have to understand its shape itself, but that is very unique many times because it is the melody which generally makes the piece unique. The same/similar chordal progressions can be seen in 10000 other pieces but melodic lines are often very unique and demand some concerntrated effort to memorise.

Is there any musician here that can instantaneously "feel" the melody note and where it belongs on the scale ? Talking with some fellow musicians, I learn that several of them can themselves feel harmony instantly, but not so for melody.

I dont quite understand what your asking about when you say "where it belongs to on the scale". Do you mean if someone starts playing some chords could I start playing a melody to go over the top of it and vice versa?  If you listen to a great deal of music then if someone starts playing chords you have a good sense of how to use it and how you have heard it being used before, even if it is a subconsious effort. Studying/listening to improvistation definatly develops this sense.

Is it possible to train myself to "feel" the individual notes of the melody like I do the harmony ?

You can understand chordal movements because they are the building blocks of music, but melodic form is the fancy trimming, the fine etched work of the music.  All the great pieces in history that stand out all have just fantastic use of the melody, many times very simple but unique and memorable. That is the reason why they are so great! People can hum it back, the music it becomes organic, a part of yourself.

Melody isn't something that can ever be mastered as easily as the support for it (harmony, chord, scale etc). It is unique in its nature because it is the singing voice of expression and it is used to articulate speech in music. It is just one note which expresses so much. Trying to conquer it with general forms would kill the creative process I think. But again, I do believe studying Improvistaion, composition and so importantly listening to a great heap of music strengthenes you sense of how to use melody and how everything else can support it.
Although i have to say, i have come up with strange melodic lines after starving myself from listening to music. So there really is no right way to go about it in that department.
But I think you have to listen to the grandmasters of music and stand on the shoulders of these giants now and then

[PrimeAlpha]

Thanks people for your replies!

Some very interesting replies here. I'd like to reply to everyone so that I'll have more food for thought. Right this moment, I only have 5 minutes on the comp, so I'll reply to 3 important replies, and we'll see how the discussion flows along.

This post is a little long, but I hope you enjoy the read

First:
-------

Easily picking up the "skeleton" of the song and accompanying.

Yes, that is precisely me: I have learned that the term "skeleton" means the harmonization, the chords of the song, and their specific "scale degree" (I-ii-iii...). The major and common exception scale degrees I can feel and reproduce with 100% precision, without even thinking about it.
Any secondary dominant and other exceptions I have learned and internalized, I can also feel and reproduce with 100% precision. Even songs I have never heard before.
Modulation, this is an art I am still learning.
Jazz... I have time before I will grasp this. Currently I can recognize some blues harmonies.

Second:
----------

Another interesting point: I was asked:

"Do you instantly "know" which harmonies to play in that case, or do alternatives exist with consequent mental fiddling ? "

This is interesting, because we are talking about harmonizing a given melody, as opposed to hearing a new, whole song, and recognizing it's harmonies, or playing a familiar song from memory, instantly reproducing it.

Indeed, now that you mention it, my mind is able to instantly harmonize an unfamiliar melody (in fact, it ALWAYS does! When I hear a human solo or a flute solo, for example - I instantly harmonize it!), although when I was talking about intantly knowing what to press, I was talking about following the "skeletal structure" of a song. However, this is no different really regarding the piano playing aspect, because as soon as my mind harmonizes something, I know immediately which harmony it is, and can immediately reproduce it on the piano.

[my mind also reproduces melodies perfectly, but my fingers still have to learn to do what my mind does with 100% precision. It is odd to me that my (and almost every other person's) vocal chords can do this, but my fingers are still learning!

How exactly do I do this? While I don't completely know how, I'll try to relate my experience, using some terms I have learned, and theorize what I am doing (I can't be completely sure...).

I am aware of the term "alternatives", and I have also learned that, for example, scale degrees ii and IV, and scale degrees iii and V, are alternatives to each other in many cases.

In answer to the question - I do not believe there is a "wrong" or "right" alternative, but being aware of another term, called "tension", I assume that there are certain harmonies that better fit the "tension" of the melody at that time, and better fit the harmony that came before it and the harmony that will come after it. Am I using this term in the right context ?

I also know that there's a term related to tension, called "expactation". You do not "have to" harmonize any part of a song in any specific way, but the farther you stray from a certain expactation, the more peculiar and unpleasing the song will become.

For example, lets say you can harmonize a certain melody with a ii, which will sound good, a IV, which will sound o.k, and any other chord, which will sound anything from weird to outright wrong. I'll harmonize the part to best my own expactation of what chord will sound more pleasing to come after the chord before it.

Another good example is Celine Dion's "my heart will go on"; It's basically V-IV-V followed by I in the non-chorus parts of the song, and vi in the chorus.

There's no right or wrong here, I think... maybe they just wanted the chorus to sound sadder.

Another example, and forgive me for reminding her in a piano forum, for those of you who don't like pop... but the britney spears song "Not a Girl Not yet a woman" is a good example, because on the same melody, they use I-V-ii-V, I-V-IV-V, and the remix even changes the root to vi, makingit vi-V-IV-V.

What was I trying to relate with all these examples? The way I feel and interpret harmony. In my experience. there isn't always a right or wrong; I'll harmonize the song according to what feel I want to give the melody. As in the Celine Dion song, I can harmonize the root I to make song happy, or vi to make the song sad.

As for how I can extrapolate harmony from melody... that's the weird part... I'm not really sure how! Maybe I have a set of rules in my mind, but I'm not fully aware of them... it's like, I have the formulas and they work, but I can't write out these formulas...

You also asked if it is possible this is so because I have heard many songs in my life. Indeed, this is a possibility; It would be what I call an induction/deduction learning process. Through lots of single songs, I inducted the formulas, and from these formulas, I deduce the harmonies for new songs.

It is also possible all my innate knowledge of harmony is my brain listening to music for 27 years, and extrapolating the commonalities just a little bit more than other people (other people can feel the harmonies just as we all can, otherwise they would not be able to enjoy music; Me, perhaps as well as developing a feel for them, I also learned to recognize them in relation to each other and give them names. I remember calling I the "happy start/end chord", and the vi the "sad start/end chord", which indeed they are; The major root, vi is the minor root of the relative natural minor.

Third:
-------

Regarding the ear training.

I am very proficient in recognizing intervals. I am also exceedingly proficient, with 100% accuracy and instantly, at recognizing any given note after a cadence.

I used a program: It plays a cadence, say, I-IV-V-I, and immediately following, playes a note. I can instantly recognize any note on the chromatic scale in relation to the key!

Why, then, am I having trouble instantly reproducing melody?

Here's the very weird thing: I can feel my mind is using my harmony algorithm to instantly recognize the note!!!

What do I mean by this?

I can instantly recognize the note, because after the cadence (which sets my mind to the key, but it could just as well have been any song), my mind interprets the next note like the bass note of some harmony in that key which I must recognize! The diatonic notes are too easy. The chromatic notes are just as easy, because I harmonize them! for example, the note half a step above the vi, I know it's the bass note of a major secondary dominant of some chord on the scale (I just recognize it and call it "the VI+ exception").

When my mind is set to a certain key, and I hear a note, I can instantly recognize the note in relation to the key - but I feel and know my mind is using my harmonizing ability by treating the note as the bass note of some chord, thereby instantly recognizingit.

When I hear many notes consecutively - a melody - on a given chord scheme - I can't use the harmonizing algorithm for the melody, because at any given moment there is already a bass note in the song (harmonized, of course) that I must recognize, and to treat the melody as another bass note to be harmonized would completely jumble up my mind, for obvious reasons (it would be like listening to 2 songs, on different keys (!) one with it's chords playing as fast as the melody and that make no sense !!!).

So when reproducing a song, I'm using my harmony abilities, to instantly reproduce the "skeleton" of the song, and to reproduce the melody, I'm using what seems to be some "interval recognition algorithm" - which is not as accurate and instantaneous as my "harmony recognition algorithm".

I'll finish with a question, which I mentioned earlier:

I would consider myself a talented piano player, but that still needs to do lots of work... but I have come to feel that this work comes down to one thing. Only one thing stands between me being another talented player, and being able to truely "talk" to the piano: reproducing melody like I do harmony.

What perplexes me most of all, is that I can do just that [and so can almost any other person] with another instrument I can play - my voice !!!

I can instantly recall a melody from memory and reproduce it perfectly by singing it! Why am I finding it so demanding to do the same on the piano, and why is harmony so easy ?

Thankyou fellow musicians and piano players for all your input! It's turning out to be a great thread, and I have already learned a lot about other musician's experiences.

[PrimeAlpha]

As I was writing my own reply, another great reply to my first post was posted, and I would like to adress it.

Indeed, some of the things that were said make sense to me, namely that the harmony is the basic building blocks of the song, and that they are slower, and the same cadences have been played 10000 times and are easily recognziable.

Indeed, the current state of things is, I can perfectly support a performance, another solo intrument, a singer, even my own voice; But playing solo, on the piano or otherwise - man, I still have a lot to learn about that !!!

The time factor perplexes me, though.

You claim that I can recognize and reproduce the harmony, among other things, because it's slower. This time factor if the only thing I don't know how much of a bearing has on my ability at harmony, because if you play the song at 10 times it's normal tempo - faster than the melody itself in many cases - I'll still recognize the chords perfectly and be able to play them ! (providing I can move my fingers fast enough to reproduce it. But I still can recognize the harmonies!)

Basic building blocks, and being the supportive skeletal structure of the song - very likely explanations. Time? I feel time isn't my problem.

With this in mind... give me enough time, and I WILL be able to recognize a melody note in it's key context (you asked what I meant by context; like you have I-ii-iii... you also have 1-2-3, 1 being the tonic, etc...), but this is because I "count down" or "count up", melodically, to the nearest recognizable note - either the major tonic, minor tonic (prallel to vi), or the the current harmony's root.

Obviously, I cannot do this when I'm playing a song in tempo, even s slow tempo.

Also, as I related in my other reply, I can instantly recognize a note when my mind is set to a key (as in, hearing a note after some cadence in a key, like I have in an ear training program) - but this is because my mind uses my "harmony algorithm", that is, treats the note as the bass note of some scale degree, then instantly harmonizes it. I can even recognize the chromatic notes this way, because they relate to certain secondary dominants and the likes, which I can recognize.

But recognizing many notes consecutively ? I can't do it that way, with a skeleton already in the background (like listening to 2 songs at the same time).

That's why I use my "harmony algorithm" to reproduce the skeleton, the chords, and a less precise "interval recognition and reproduction algorithm" to reproduce the melody.

[ted]

PrimeAlpha:

Thanks for your reply. It is clear that you have a highly developed unconscious memory for the harmonies used in conventional, tonal music. The fact that you do not hesitate to use the words "weird" and "wrong" tells me that. The fact is that I, and others like me (assuming there are some somewhere, a premise which I suppose ought not to be stated a priori !) tend to regard the whole of music as a sort of arbitrary sound landscape, no part of which has moral dominion, in the musical sense, over another. The view is not allied to aural acuity or the lack of it, but to the fundamental way in which sound produces ecstasy in the brain.

I have encountered this difference with both jazz and classical musicians in my studies with  them. I would say, "Why not stick this chord here ?" They would reply, "But that would sound strange !" I reply, "Sounds pretty good to me." And for some reason personal relations would deteriorate (on their part, not on mine) from then on.

Your initial post reminded me of all this and of why I am probably neither musician nor pianist in any generally accepted sense of the words.

 

[chromatickler]

Prime Alpha, it seems you do not have perfect pitch recall after the sound fades. get some one to play the melody on the piano with the sustaining pedal fully held down, see if u can reproduce it then.

[PrimeAlpha]

Prime Alpha, it seems you do not have perfect pitch recall after the sound fades. get some one to play the melody on the piano with the sustaining pedal fully held down, see if u can reproduce it then.

Interesting that you mention this...

I have good tone recall. Excellent, in fact. But I do not have perfect pitch. In fact, I'm not sure perfect pitch would help me.

What allows us musicians to instantly transpose a melody is excellent relative pitch, because if we remember the "contour", we can, with the given skills, reproduce it on any key.

Harmonies and melodies do not register in my head as absolute notes, but rather as scale degrees (harmony) and contour (melody).

I am aware that perfect pitch may be able to allow me to recognize specific notes, but this kind of recognition would not be in any context (for example, when I recognize harmonies, I may recognize the root of the C major key as "that's a C chord", but what my mind instantly does is "That's the I degree in C major").

After reading articles on ear training, I learned that there is much debate over how important perfect pitch is.

There is no doubt, however, that relative pitch os just as important, if not more so.

Regarding your suggestion: When the sound fades, I will remember it, but not as a perfect pitch; I will remember it as part of a melody from a certain key's "point of view", and given a key, I will be able to sing it with ease. Reproducing it on the keyboard, though, is a different matter...

[abell88]

I'd suggest a solfege course...just the process of teaching basic solfege has made me much more adept at playing back melodies.

[Daevren]

I didn't read most of the posts (yet). But I think that harmony is alot more complex than melody. So it is curious that you seem to be very good at the one and not at the other. But it is not that hard to develop a melodic orientation (at least for most people).

I suggest listening to your favorite music and singing along, which is fun. And soflege, which is a little bit less fun.