unachievable metronome marks

[lenny]

im thinking of works that havent yet ever been recorded at the marked tempo

famous ones include -

hammerklavier

winterwind etude

various alkan pieces

any others?

[allchopin]

The etude was not actually meant to be played at Chopin's original half=69 marking - I quote Roberto from a distant thread about Chopin's third etude:

"The metronome indication of the étude op.10 nr 3 in the first original edition "Maurice Schlesinger" (who is buryd near Chopin in "Pére la Chaise"...) is exactly 100 for a eight note. That meanse exactly "76" on the contempory metronome...because Chopin's metronome dit not have the same "speed"...The étude op.10 nr 2 has "144" , that means with us "116"; I think this is very important to know the exactly tempo of each étude because it's changing the 'interpretation.' "

Thus, recordings at tempo 60 are rare because most resepct the author's intentions.  However, the closest recording I have (among about 6) is Sgouros who clocks it in at 3:16.

[liszt1022]

Liszt used Beethoven's original tempo markings for his Beethoven symphony transcriptions, and they are usually too fast to play on piano.

[lenny]

Liszt used Beethoven's original tempo markings for his Beethoven symphony transcriptions, and they are usually too fast to play on piano.

have you heard the katsaris recordings? i think he gets about as close as possible to them

[lenny]

The etude was not actually meant to be played at Chopin's original half=69 marking - I quote Roberto from a distant thread about Chopin's third etude:

"The metronome indication of the étude op.10 nr 3 in the first original edition "Maurice Schlesinger" (who is buryd near Chopin in "Pére la Chaise"...) is exactly 100 for a eight note. That meanse exactly "76" on the contempory metronome...because Chopin's metronome dit not have the same "speed"...The étude op.10 nr 2 has "144" , that means with us "116"; I think this is very important to know the exactly tempo of each étude because it's changing the 'interpretation.' "

Thus, recordings at tempo 60 are rare because most resepct the author's intentions.  However, the closest recording I have (among about 6) is Sgouros who clocks it in at 3:16.

the fastest winterwind i know of clocks in a couple seconds under the stated tempo, so youre saying this tempo is wrong?

[liszt1022]

have you heard the katsaris recordings? i think he gets about as close as possible to them

Sure he does, but he also isn't playing Liszt's text - it's trimmed and inflated here and there to his liking.

[r.schaefer]

Consider Talsma's theory:
https://www.tempogiusto.de/english.htm
https://www.tempogiusto.de/
https://www.hodie-world.com/
https://www.tempusfoundation.org/
https://www.wellermusik.de/                    <---- best site, but only in german
                    He compares the metronome marking of Alkan's "Chemin de Fer” with real 
                    trains of that time for example: (half note 112<->~50 km/h)
https://www.digitalaudioguide.com/cgi-bin/review/music_reviewview.pl?category=classical&name=music&product=23

[SteinwayTony]

I just realized that my Cziffra recording of 25-11 is actually two seconds slower than Cortot's.  Weird!

[lenny]

Consider Talsma's theory:
https://www.tempogiusto.de/english.htm
https://www.tempogiusto.de/
https://www.hodie-world.com/
https://www.tempusfoundation.org/
https://www.wellermusik.de/                    <---- best site, but only in german
                    He compares the metronome marking of Alkan's "Chemin de Fer” with real 
                    trains of that time for example: (half note 112<->~50 km/h)
https://www.digitalaudioguide.com/cgi-bin/review/music_reviewview.pl?category=classical&name=music&product=23

thanks very interesting sites!

that alkan tempo is very interesting!

[jcromp78]

The winterwind in the Godowksy Paraphase is probably the one that is unacheivable. It is tremdously difficult to play because of all the octaves instead of single notes. Marc Andre Hamelin even said this about the piece in his notes to his complete recording of the set.

[lenny]

i wonder which hamelin considers to be the most difficult

[krittyot]

i wonder which hamelin considers to be the most difficult

For a master like him, nothing he cannot play.

[liszt1022]

For a master like him, nothing he cannot play.

From the sleeve notes, he seems to consider the Study "Ingus Fatuus" on op. 10 no. 2 to be among the most difficult of the set.

In any case, I actually prefer half of the recordings by Carlo Grante of the Studies over Hamelin. Hamelin blurs a lot of passages while Grante plays with very little pedal, so you can hear the voices and counterpoint better.

[lenny]

who would you say is the superior technician?

i think the blurring is intentional and part of his conception of godowsky's style.

in the notes he also describes the winterwind as being extremely difficult.

in the hamelin-and-the-8 book he also mentions a particular ligeti piece that he is unable to play, i think due to rhythmic complexity or something along those lines.

he actually said it demands 2 brains to be played properly.

[steinwayguy]

im thinking of works that havent yet ever been recorded at the marked tempo

famous ones include -

hammerklavier

winterwind etude

various alkan pieces

any others?

I know someone recorded the Hammerklavier at 138 to the half note, but I can't remember who exactly. I'll post back if I find out, although I think it's somewhere else on this forum... if not, it's at goodmusidguide.com's forum

[chromatickler]

The winterwind in the Godowksy Paraphase is probably the one that is unacheivable.

i would reserve judgement until i see the libetta tapes

[cdho]

Robert Taub recorded the Hammerklavier at tempo.  But it sounds so rushed!

[lenny]

i would reserve judgement until i see the libetta tapes

i actually have a hamelin video of that piece, it looks just as hard as it looks on the score