Good fingers for scales in 6ths?

[Bob]

I found the Macfarren book recently.  I was looking at the scales in 6ths section.

Does anyone have either complete fingerings or the ideas guiding fingers for scales in 6th, where you're using 3, 4, and 5, not just moving the whole hand for each 6ths note pair.

[lostinidlewonder]

Do you mean you don't agree with the fingers he has supplied? Perhaps would be interesting to discuss particular patterns.

[visitor]

I recommend that thing I think about weekly or monthly it seems around here since I began visiting.
Glad folks are getting a look at it
Generally the 3rds sixths and 10ths won't vary any from the fingering in unison so the fingerings will generally or should usually follow the same pattern it's just a "shifts" over
3rds.and 10ths will be the same
The contrary motion and the rarer but fun 3,rds and 6,ths dwell awkward as heck but I find value in those too
Wouldn't be super difficult to write it out but I check there's probably some already that could supplement the mcfarren

[Bob]

*fingerings    in the title.


Scales in sixths with a sixth in both hands, four notes total.

It looked like Macfarren gives a major and minor fingering.  (I disagree with the minor.  You can do melodic minor with a V vi (?) viio up, i bVII bVI V down.) Yeah... Appendix, pg. 4.  It's just major and minor.  And then he shows similar vs. contrary motion.

I was wondering if there were any guiding principals for figuring out a good fingerings for sixths in both hands.  On other things, maybe thirds, I noticed there were patterns.  Although figuring it out myself would be helpful too probably.

[lostinidlewonder]

There are plenty of options and variations in the exact combination of fingers used to play a scale in 6ths. Usually in pieces we are playing 6ths within a specific type of pattern rather than just mere scale up or down movements and thus the optimised fingering choice depends on this context.

It is most important to provide actual examples to discuss because then the fingering variations and logic behind them can be discussed more clearly. I could iniate this type of discussion but I think it's better that you choose the material to investigate.

[Bob]

Root/Do on the upper/rightmost digit in the left and right hands, down a sixth to the third on the other side. 

Up and down two octaves.

[lostinidlewonder]

Just post actual sheet music, writing it in words is confusing. Write out your fingering ideas and we can discuss, or highlight those which you don't understand or disagree with and we can discuss.

[anacrusis]

I hope Bob returns with some sheet music, because I'd love to see a discussion on this.

[Bob]

I have returned.     I poked around a bit for double sixth scale fingerings, but I wasn't finding anything, not like I found for scales in thirds. 

This looks interesting, for the fingerings, and also because they just copy and pasted something there.  And then they're probably selling something on top of that.  I'm wondering what the source is.  And after looking at this post, I wondering what happened the Maclaren book I got... and if that had these fingerings.  Or it's likely something else had them that I've got.
https://bluesjazzpiano.com/major-sixths-scales.html

Also found this but I haven't looked at it yet.
https://www.wheaton.edu/media/migrated-images-amp-files/media/files/academics/faculty/horn-dp/DPH-FINGERINGS-FOR-DBL-6THS.pdf


Just for C Major, it feels like my left hand isn't quite as stretched out/usable as my right, which makes sense.  The 25 14 jumping makes that obvious.

What I did find was the old solfege line works well for getting the fingerings down on these.  I only spent a few minutes on them yesterday and today.  Five minutes on RH yesterday.  Five minutes on LH today.  Enough to pick out the patterns, but my hands don't have them down yet.

These patterns work well.
Do. 
Do re do.
Do re mi re do.
Do re mi fa mi re do.
Do re mi fa sol mi re do.
Do re mi fa sol la sol fa mi re do.
Do re mi fa sol la ti la sol fa mi re do.
Do re mi fa sol la ti do ti la sol fa mi re do.

Although it breaks the pattern of staying on the beat by repeating do between them.

Do.
Do ti do.
Do ti la ti do.
Do ti la sol la ti do.
Do ti la sol fa sol la ti do.
Do ti la sol fa mi fa sol la ti do.
Do ti la sol fa mi re mi fa sol la ti do.
Do ti la sol fa mi re do re mi fa sol la ti do.

[Bob]

Found the music copy and pasted on that jazz site.
https://bluesjazzpiano.com/piano-method.html
A Complete Course of Instruction for the Piano-Forte
Karl Merz
Website says it was published in 1885
It's kind of like an edited version with the way it's cut up and has comments.
Silly me... I thought the website creator was the one who scanned the original material.  They could just found it online.  Easy enough to find it online.

I don't remember hearing of this guy before.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Merz

[Bob]

Has anyone used this Merz book? 

Someone's got pieces of it here.
https://bluesjazzpiano.com/piano-method.html

1800-something, so probably out of copyright.  It's easy enough to find the whole thing online. 

The sixths in each hand fingerings.... They fit the hand well in some spots, and that makes sense for the fingering.  But that's balanced out by a bit of awkwardness in other parts of the scale.  It does seem to stretch the hand out a little wider.