[Video] Kaikhosru Sorabji: Gulistān

[leunghb]

Hi,

My son just learned the Kaikhosru Sorabji: Gulistān by himself.

[lostinidlewonder]

Quite exceptional, you must be very proud of your son, very few pianists can manage Sorabji's works, it requires very strong reading skills to get through all that work efficiently.  I noticed simplification in parts but it really makes no large difference. I see he has not taken piano as a career, nonetheless I hope he continues on with piano for the rest of his life and does some more concerts when he can fit them in. Perhaps you can encourage him to come on pianostreet some time to give insight how others can study the piano too.

[musicforever60]

Hi, I am the actual performer behind the posted video. I did not post it on this forum and I was not aware of its posting. If you have any questions concerning the video, feel free to ask

@lostinidlewonder Can you clarify what you mean by "simplifications" in parts? I believe I played everything as written.

[lostinidlewonder]

There are a number of points where notes are not played as written. I really don't want to have to go through it, I am sure if you are the actual performer you would notice and admit it too. This kind of music it doesn't matter if notes are missed or coordination changed in any case.

More interesting discussion would be your description of how you go about learning these large scale works in quick time.

[musicforever60]

Can you provide one example, at least? That'd be appreciated.

Regarding how I learn things quickly, see this video of mine:

[lostinidlewonder]

I wont provide examples because I think the performer will know that all themselves. I just don't want to give fuel for others to berate the performance. Do you think 100% of the notes were hit perfectly as written? A number of the rhythmic devices played sound the same rather than as written, the estimation of the rhythm and syncopation. Of course it doesn't matter but that was what I was meaning.

I don't want to watch a video about it all, discussion is more thought provoking. What is curious is that it requires a strong amount of sight reading skills, so there must be a synergy between memory and reading skills, this kind of work is not memorized unless you want to play a very small amount of them.

[musicforever60]

I mean... if I answer your question about how I am learning things so quickly, then I'm just repeating what I formalized with examples in the video, so the best approach I'd recommend is to watch the video, and then have follow-up questions. That'd be the best use of both our time.

[lostinidlewonder]

This is a discussion forum though not youtube, I don't have time to watch 20+ mins of a video and I already stated the connection between reading and memory that must be used which you chose not to elaborate upon. I also asked if you think 100% of the notes in the recording were completely accurate which also got no response. I personally don't have any specific questions because I understand how it is done. It might be interesting to share the knowledge in a discussion format though rather than point out errors and estimations in the OP video, that's what I was saying would be more interesting. There are plenty of questions asked about learning piano that you could give input to on the board.

[musicforever60]

Regarding the 100% accuracy thing, really, nobody cares. Would anyone play most of Chopin's music perfectly in time (even the appoggiaturated parts)? Probably not, because it's insensitive to the style and emotional portrayal of the music. Here, Sorabji writes complex polyrhythms, but the groupings are there for purposes of emphasis and not perfect timing. In fact, it sounds quite awful to play them perfectly. If you're implying that I intentionally left out notes in the recording, then I didn't. If you're referring to me unintentionally missing some notes or playing the wrong ones, then sure, here and there it happens. But still, as long as it doesn't detract from the musical concept that is being projected, nobody really cares for this kind of music.

Also, why are you not willing to watch a 20+ min video? The OP video Gulistān is 35 minutes long. Also, the connection between memory and sightreading is just a vague summary of what I talk about in the explanation video. I am a Computer Science major student at a top Canadian university and I tend to explain things with a certain degree of rigor and perspective I take that has been churned through a background in Computer Science. I'm trying to spark your interest here, but if you feel you know everything there is to know about learning music quickly, then I'll take your word for it (and don't know why you even asked in the first place), and expect to hear some recordings done in an exceptionally short learning time as well. 

[lostinidlewonder]

Regarding the 100% accuracy thing, really, nobody cares. Would anyone play most of Chopin's music perfectly in time (even the appoggiaturated parts)? Probably not, because it's insensitive to the style and emotional portrayal of the music. Here, Sorabji writes complex polyrhythms, but the groupings are there for purposes of emphasis and not perfect timing. In fact, it sounds quite awful to play them perfectly.

I don't know about it sounding awful more accurate extrametric/contrametric rhythms do have a percievable difference in cases which one could argue doesn't sound more ugly at all, it is understandable that it makes life a lot more difficult though and impractical in many cases. Chopin even said no one really notices uneveness of notes when they are played fast which is quite true since it is only if you slow down a recording that you do notice more obviously the uneveness that may occur. Of course with works with Chopin it would be more noticable if there are estimations compared to Sorabji of course this is because of the difference in musical style. 

If you're implying that I intentionally left out notes in the recording, then I didn't. If you're referring to me unintentionally missing some notes or playing the wrong ones, then sure, here and there it happens. But still, as long as it doesn't detract from the musical concept that is being projected, nobody really cares for this kind of music.

I agree that no one really cares and did mention that more than once. I don't think its a really interesting discussion in any case.

Also, why are you not willing to watch a 20+ min video? The OP video Gulistān is 35 minutes long.

Listening to music is easier than focusing on a lecture.

Also, the connection between memory and sightreading is just a vague summary of what I talk about in the explanation video.

A lot of people don't realise that playing larger scale works from composers like Sorabji requires that you are able to read while playing. That is why I emphasised that the synergy between sight reading and memorisation needs to work strongly hand in hand. It is not like standard classical works which can be memorised easily by comparison. If one was to totally memorise works from Sorabji then the amount of pieces accessible would of course logically decrease.

I'm trying to spark your interest here, but if you feel you know everything there is to know about learning music quickly, then I'll take your word for it (and don't know why you even asked in the first place), and expect to hear some recordings done in an exceptionally short learning time as well. 

No one can claim they know EVERYTHING but I do know the process of learning complex music quite deeply (I've been teaching piano for some 27 years and studied piano for 38 years). I didn't specifically ask you to explain anything to me personally I just said that the discussion would be interesting by comparison to pointing out parts which could have been done more accurately. You posted a video which should satisfy the majority of people but since you joined up here on pianostreet why not create a thread detailing it in written word and with diagrams I am sure many people would be interested learning/reading about it and generating discussion from it, it is certainly a better format for detailed discussion than youtube. Your expertise is a rarity and would be a great addition to the knowledge tank here in pianostreet. I personally do not share my playing extensively online certainly not to prove anything or garner attention, some of us older pianists who were born before the internet really don't care about the attention seeking nature of the internet nor could compete with the video recording editing skills and presentation, it is more for those younger generations and computer minded people which I am not. I earn a lot more money away from the internet, unfortunately I am not a young lady with beautiful legs to gain heaps of view on youtube and quit my job in education lol.

[klavieronin]

I think videos have some advantages over text (visuals, demonstrations, sound etc., plus they are, IMHO, less prone to misinterpretation). On forums they can serve as a convenient way to get conversations started. It's probably asking a bit much to reformat that particular video into text format.

In any case, I watched the video. The presentation was a little complicated but got the main points. I'm not sure there was anything ground-breaking there and so I think it's safe to say that you have a talent few others have, or could hope to have. And I'm pretty sure it's primarily this talent (and the hard work that developed it) that allows you to learn such complicated works so quickly.