When should i play the Hungarian rhapsody No. 6

[playspiano]

How many years of practice should i have beforehand when learning the piece and at what age did you play it?

[fretlesss]

I never played the piece myself (I am not a big fan of Liszt, tbh), but I can tell you when it is advised to be played in the Russian music education system.

Students are usually taking this piece in the 3rd year of the musical college. It would usually take you at least 10 years of regular musical studies to get there (8 years of music school and 2 years of musical college) unless you are a prodigy and able to evolve faster than the usual curriculum. Age wise it would be around 17 years old.

[lelle]

I never played the piece myself (I am not a big fan of Liszt, tbh), but I can tell you when it is advised to be played in the Russian music education system.

Students are usually taking this piece in the 3rd year of the musical college. It would usually take you at least 10 years of regular musical studies to get there (8 years of music school and 2 years of musical college) unless you are a prodigy and able to evolve faster than the usual curriculum. Age wise it would be around 17 years old.

That's fascinating. Is there some way to see a list of when pieces are advised to be played according to the Russian education system? I'd love to find out this kind of stuff about more pieces.

[fretlesss]

That's fascinating. Is there some way to see a list of when pieces are advised to be played according to the Russian education system? I'd love to find out this kind of stuff about more pieces.

Unfortunately, it is not as straightforward with Russian internet resources as it is with, say, Canada, where you have the syllabus published (https://files.rcmusic.com//sites/default/files/files/RCM-Piano-Syllabus-2015.pdf). If you can read in russian, I can  advise a musical forum, where you can pick it up.

[nightwindsonata]

It's a bit hard to give an exact timeline as to when, but let us consider the difficulties contained in the Rhapsody:

-massive rolled chords and jumps in the first section.

-interlocking thumbs and quick staccato jumps in the second section.

-opera-like cadenzas at the end of the third section with rather tricky fingering, requiring a certain amount of finger dexterity/velocity.

-several pages of some of the most unforgiving octave work Liszt has ever put out (which is saying a lot). Covering with the pedal is not an option here--ever note needs to be crisp and exciting, with the same clarity of articulation as a gypsy fiddler. The left-hand octaves in the second-to-last page are some of the most difficult that Liszt has ever put forth (at least on par with the B minor Sonata).

I adore Liszt's music (and I've played quite a lot of it), but even with my thirteen years of study I don't yet consider myself ready to take on the 6th Rhapsody. You should not try to play it until you have mastered all of the above difficulties in other pieces, ideally in a less exposed fashion. A recommendation of mine would be to get a teacher who is well-versed in Liszt, as well as studying his technical prowess. Practice octaves every day--in my own practice, I do octaves in scales, hands-separate arpeggios (because I'm a wimp), and four-note chord inversions in contrary motion. Do them slowly, focusing on accuracy and a looseness of the hand, moving from position to position with precision and a very flexible wrist.

[lelle]

Unfortunately, it is not as straightforward with Russian internet resources as it is with, say, Canada, where you have the syllabus published (https://files.rcmusic.com//sites/default/files/files/RCM-Piano-Syllabus-2015.pdf). If you can read in russian, I can  advise a musical forum, where you can pick it up.

Ah that's a shame. Unfortunately, I cannot read russian at all

[playspiano]

Students are usually taking this piece in the 3rd year of the musical college. It would usually take you at least 10 years of regular musical studies to get there (8 years of music school and 2 years of musical college) unless you are a prodigy and able to evolve faster than the usual curriculum. Age wise it would be around 17 years old.

Isn't 10 years of studying a bit too much for the rhapsody no 6? Im learning it with 6 years of practice, at the age of thirteen for a competition. I don't think people with that progress have very much fun playing piano.

[dogperson]

Isn't 10 years of studying a bit too much for the rhapsody no 6? Im learning it with 6 years of practice, at the age of thirteen for a competition. I don't think people with that progress have very much fun playing piano.

I’m not understanding why you asked the question if you were learning it for a competition?  You need to realize that you don’t sound like the average pianists: most don’t play in competitions at age 13; most don’t learn grade 9-10 music in six years.  Many amateurs will never be able to learn this piece.. some want to be able to play it, and some are very happy with what they can play.

And yes, they are able to find joy in learning and playing,  their goals are just different from yours.   

[playspiano]

I’m not understanding why you asked the question if you were learning it for a competition?  You need to realize that you don’t sound like the average pianists: most don’t play in competitions at age 13

1. I asked the question at a time, where I didn't know if I could play the piece. I also wanted to know (, if I played it,) if it would be difficult enough for the competition. I also wanted to know if it would be too easy, because, in my opinion, the more challenging a piece is, the more fun it is. I also wanna make progress and not play something as easy as the Chopin waltz in c-sharp minor.

2. The competition is specifically made for kids/teens, but in my country (Germany) very famous for kids/teens. I watched it at the beginning of 2020 and there were really talented kids, playing Mozart extremely clean or other difficult pieces with eleven. I also watched the part of the competition for the 12/13 year olds: A girl played the mendelssohn rondo capriccioso, and the c-sharp major Bach fugue. Another girl (from my school) played the Hungarian rhapsody no. 6. She passed the first round, even though she messed up the octave part a bit, which is in my opinion not competition worthy. Because I wanna play it as good as my teacher wants me to, I wanted to know if it was way too difficult of or just a bit too difficult (aka still playable, but a very fun challenge) before asking my teacher. Also, another reason why is asked the question is, because I don't wanna play average at that competition. The difficulty plays a big role in competitions for kids/teens, because most don't have the discipline or the experience to learn a difficult piece over a relative long time. How musically the piece is played, plays an even bigger role when playing very difficult pieces at a competition for kids/teens, because it shows even more if the kid knows what it's doing and not just playing everything like in the sheet music.

3. In my opinion, its not fun to play relative "easy" pieces. I like it, when I have a fun and challenging piece, that's a bit above my level. here are some the last pieces I played (from the end of 2019-now in chronological order, if I remember correctly):

Mozart rondo alla turca
march of the dwarfs
nocturne op 9 no 2 chopin
1st movement "pathetique" sonata beethoven
waltz in c-sharp minor chopin
arabesque no 1 Debussy
(paused pieces, because of competition: chopin etude op 10 no 4 (not finished, will learn the entire piece after the competition)
toccata Khachaturian (originally planned for the competition, will learn it after the competition.))
Hungarian rhapsody no. 6 Liszt

You can see that there are quite the jumps in difficulty there, at least in my opinion.

Well, that's it with my reply, sorry for the bad English, and
Bye

[fretlesss]

Isn't 10 years of studying a bit too much for the rhapsody no 6? Im learning it with 6 years of practice, at the age of thirteen for a competition. I don't think people with that progress have very much fun playing piano.

No, 10 years of studying is not too much for it, at least that is the normal course of events. Those 10 years are usually filled with learning other pieces that will lay the foundation of one's technical and interpretative abilities, that are required to perform this rhapsody at the level it deserves.

Having said that, I used the term "normal course of events". As an example, Kissin played Chopin's 1st concerto at 11, 7-8 years ahead of his peers. That is the power of being a prodigy. If you fit into this category (I do hope your teacher is of the same opinion), "normal course of events" do not apply to you. Good luck at the competition!

[fftransform]

The toughest piece you've finished is the Debussy Arabesque?  PLEASE link us your audition video when you record it.  You can be the next Cindy Elizondo:

You say you're learning it, care to post your progress so far on the octaves?

[ranjit]

Isn't 10 years of studying a bit too much for the rhapsody no 6? Im learning it with 6 years of practice, at the age of thirteen for a competition. I don't think people with that progress have very much fun playing piano.

Interesting question. I have not *learned* the Hungarian Rhapsody, but can play the octave section at the end to an extent nearly at tempo. I'll answer from that perspective.

What the HR6 would be, for you, would likely be a considerable stretch piece. Don't get me wrong, there are 13-year olds who can play the piece really well, such as some of the famous prodigies. However, given your repertoire and experience I think you will be able to play it to some extent, and may be able to perform it at the competition slightly under tempo, but it will probably not be nearly as solid as say your Chopin Nocturne.

That is not to say it's a bad thing. And I'm not at all saying this to discourage you but to provide some perspective based on what I've seen. Playing a piece, and playing a piece with mastery, are two different things. If you were at a level where you could play the HR6 with mastery, I would expect to see a lot of difficult repertoire in a progressive fashion. For example, if you had played several Chopin etudes, a Chopin Ballade, Ravel Jeux D'Eau, the entire Beethoven op 111, Mendelssohn Rondo Capriccioso, etc., among other pieces, then I would expect you to possibly be able to play the HR6 with mastery. Right now, you are likely to learn it once, maybe play it for the competition, but it will likely only be truly *learned* at a solid level when you're in college or later.

Again, this is not a bad thing and I would expect you to still learn a lot. But that's what makes it difficult to explain whether you can learn the HR6 or not, because what constitutes learning is a bit different from person to person. Can you simply play the notes? How many of the nuances can you get? You can play the octaves at tempo, but are they jagged or smooth? Is your technique tense or relaxed? etc. Playing the octaves at tempo or slightly below isn't easy, but playing them with mastery to the point where you do not get tired and it is very musical is much harder.

When you ask such a question, it is important to mention your background because, although it may not seem obvious to you right now, there is a pretty wide range in how fast people learn. And giving a baseline of where you are at this moment gives insight into your thought process and your level.

Check this out, you may find it useful. Josh Wright talks about how he learned difficult repertoire at a young age, and the consequences, good and bad.
https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy8xMDRmNGIwMC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw/episode/NjM0OTVmODEtZWQzOC00NzBiLThiNTItOWE3MTE1YjBiZDFi?sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiCg4HL24zrAhUC_BoKHaNTAzAQkfYCegQIARAF

That said, he also talks about how he learned Gaspard at age 11 which his teacher assigned at some point, but I can't find the video.

[playspiano]

Interesting question. I have not *learned* the Hungarian Rhapsody, but can play the octave section at the end to an extent nearly at tempo. I'll answer from that perspective.

What the HR6 would be, for you, would likely be a considerable stretch piece. Don't get me wrong, there are 13-year olds who can play the piece really well, such as some of the famous prodigies. However, given your repertoire and experience I think you will be able to play it to some extent, and may be able to perform it at the competition slightly under tempo, but it will probably not be nearly as solid as say your Chopin Nocturne.

I have one year of time, and my teacher would kill me if I couldn't play it like the other pieces I played. Also, the first thing my teacher right now gave me when I switched teachers, was a jump from the rondo all turca (absolutely not musically played because my fisrt teacher never cared about that) and march of the dwarfs (played surprisingly good for the progress I made in the 3 months I learned the piece). I also forgot to mention that I played the chopin etude op 10 no 12 and op 25 no 2. The main thing for me in the competition is to have fun.

[playspiano]

The toughest piece you've finished is the Debussy Arabesque?  PLEASE link us your audition video when you record it.  You can be the next Cindy Elizondo:

You say you're learning it, care to post your progress so far on the octaves?

1. I already played it in October last year, I could post a recording of it, if I figure out how to make it a Youtube Video with a black screen.

2. I could post it, but I dont think I should right now, because I have gotten the piece less than a week ago.

[playspiano]

Interesting question. I have not *learned* the Hungarian Rhapsody, but can play the octave section at the end to an extent nearly at tempo. I'll answer from that perspective.

What the HR6 would be, for you, would likely be a considerable stretch piece. Don't get me wrong, there are 13-year olds who can play the piece really well, such as some of the famous prodigies. However, given your repertoire and experience I think you will be able to play it to some extent, and may be able to perform it at the competition slightly under tempo, but it will probably not be nearly as solid as say your Chopin Nocturne.

That is not to say it's a bad thing. And I'm not at all saying this to discourage you but to provide some perspective based on what I've seen. Playing a piece, and playing a piece with mastery, are two different things. If you were at a level where you could play the HR6 with mastery, I would expect to see a lot of difficult repertoire in a progressive fashion. For example, if you had played several Chopin etudes, a Chopin Ballade, Ravel Jeux D'Eau, the entire Beethoven op 111, Mendelssohn Rondo Capriccioso, etc., among other pieces, then I would expect you to possibly be able to play the HR6 with mastery. Right now, you are likely to learn it once, maybe play it for the competition, but it will likely only be truly *learned* at a solid level when you're in college or later.

Again, this is not a bad thing and I would expect you to still learn a lot. But that's what makes it difficult to explain whether you can learn the HR6 or not, because what constitutes learning is a bit different from person to person. Can you simply play the notes? How many of the nuances can you get? You can play the octaves at tempo, but are they jagged or smooth? Is your technique tense or relaxed? etc. Playing the octaves at tempo or slightly below isn't easy, but playing them with mastery to the point where you do not get tired and it is very musical is much harder.

When you ask such a question, it is important to mention your background because, although it may not seem obvious to you right now, there is a pretty wide range in how fast people learn. And giving a baseline of where you are at this moment gives insight into your thought process and your level.

Check this out, you may find it useful. Josh Wright talks about how he learned difficult repertoire at a young age, and the consequences, good and bad.
https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy8xMDRmNGIwMC9wb2RjYXN0L3Jzcw/episode/NjM0OTVmODEtZWQzOC00NzBiLThiNTItOWE3MTE1YjBiZDFi?sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiCg4HL24zrAhUC_BoKHaNTAzAQkfYCegQIARAF

That said, he also talks about how he learned Gaspard at age 11 which his teacher assigned at some point, but I can't find the video.

I already knew it would be difficult. But my teacher wouldn't have allowed me to play the piece generally if she didn't think I could play it like she wants me to. I'm generally used to the nuances my teacher always wants me to play. The thing is basically playing the octaves clean at a decent speed and not getting tired. And I can practice both of these things. And something to mention is that I'm 12 years old right now, and I will play the piece when I'm 13. Which means that I have 1 year of practice time for playing Liszt and one or two other pieces (probably not as difficult). My relatively slow progress is mainly because of my 1st teacher, where I have basically gotten nowhere (in 3 years Rondo Alla Turca, played like absolute sh*t). If I had my current teacher since the beginning, I would have gotten way further with my progress. I had my current teacher for 2 years and went from the Rondo Alla Turca, to Hungarian rhapsody. Btw, the piece my teacher suggested first was the Khachaturian Toccata (which I will learn after the competition now). After my lesson she said: "It is pretty nice to play such difficult pieces." And she didn't mean, to just play the notes, but play the piece musically. In the first lesson of me playing the piece, she already wanted me  to play the 1st part of the piece with basic musicality to go more in to detail later. We spend 10 minutes on measure for me to get it completely right.

I can understand your point of view, but I think that I will be playing it good, probably not as good as the prodigies (who expected that), but definitely better than you think of me right now. I can't blame you because you never heard me play anything. Maybe what you said was right and I will not play the rhapsody very good, and only decent for my age but who knows? I will definitely post a recording of it when I learned it to my fullest extent. Also, I'm NOT Josh Wright, and will probably never be as good as he is, but I will make progress. I also just turned 12 (1 and a half months ago) and I will definitely not give up.

The piece is more than just the octave part. I can already play the piece at a slow, but decent tempo. The octave part is a struggle, yes, but I have already gotten a better endurance and my octaves aren't that slow. Slower than most play it of course, but not by too much.

I also play piano since a bit more than 5 years, being a bit late to start.

I may sound a bit arrogant here, but I just wanted to make things a bit clear.

Bye

[nightwindsonata]

I would advise you to start practicing scales and arpeggios in octaves as a daily exercise: start slowly, hands alone--completely relaxed--and gradually work out patterns that allow you to work your way up to speed. Experiment with different touches and voicings--sinking all the way into the key, as you would in the E major section of the Chopin 1st Ballade; quick, short bursts, as in the Scriabin D-sharp minor Etude; and finally perfecting a light, fast, and accurate touch that will come very much in handy in the 6th Rhapsody. Make sure to engage with all keys, major and minor. In the same breath, you should also make sure to master three- and four- note chord inversions (once again in all keys), followed by varying broken patterns based on such. Once you can do these comfortably, most of the Hungarian Rhapsodies will be well within reach (well, all but maybe 9 and 14), including number 6. I was recently challenged on this forum to increase my capacity and accuracy with octaves, so I have been working to do so, hoping to eventually gain such a complete proficiency that even the Dante Sonata and the Tchaikovsky Concerto eventually come with ease.

[ranjit]

You don't sound arrogant at all, don't worry about it. You realize some things over time, and your standard for playing musically may change as well as you develop. I think posting a recording would provide the clearest indication of your actual level. If you have an mp3, you can actually upload files right here in your post as long as they are under 50 MB in size. I don't doubt that you have played the pieces you mention, but the level of musicality (it's not a binary thing) is very important to make an assessment.

The thing is basically playing the octaves clean at a decent speed and not getting tired.

Playing the octaves is much more about efficiency than it is about endurance. You will need to practice certain movements with your wrist, and playing in groups with micro-relaxations.

And something to mention is that I'm 12 years old right now, and I will play the piece when I'm 13. Which means that I have 1 year of practice time for playing Liszt and one or two other pieces (probably not as difficult).

1 year is actually not that long a time when it comes to the development of piano skills. It is about what I would expect for a piece which you will be using for a competition.

My relatively slow progress is mainly because of my 1st teacher, where I have basically gotten nowhere (in 3 years Rondo Alla Turca, played like absolute sh*t). If I had my current teacher since the beginning, I would have gotten way further with my progress. I had my current teacher for 2 years and went from the Rondo Alla Turca, to Hungarian rhapsody.

Your progress is not relatively slow, it is very fast by normal standards. Especially if we're talking about playing it well. Playing Hungarian Rhapsody 6 after 6 years is not typical at all. Which is why you need to be careful that you are developing all of your fundamentals adequately.

Btw, the piece my teacher suggested first was the Khachaturian Toccata (which I will learn after the competition now). After my lesson she said: "It is pretty nice to play such difficult pieces." And she didn't mean, to just play the notes, but play the piece musically.

I have had teachers tell me this exact thing. Now, I don't want you to get the wrong idea -- I don't know enough about you or your teacher to comment. But, there is a difference between struggling with a piece and playing it with command. And from your experience, it is unlikely, statistically speaking, that you are able to play it well with command. I've had the experience where I worked on difficult pieces with a teacher, and they were played pretty musically as well. But when I showed it to some pianists, I realized that a lot of things were lacking in terms of quality of the tone, touch, phrasing, technique... Just something to be mindful of. The HR6, if played well, is a difficult piece even for conservatory students. Sometimes, we learn a single difficult piece. And just so you know where I'm coming from, I also learned Chopin etudes op 10 no 12 and op 25 no 12 some time back, but they weren't truly at the level they should be, and my time would not be well spent by working on those extensively for 6 months, for example.

Also, you said that you went from playing the Rondo Alla Turca poorly, to the Hungarian Rhapsody, in two years. That is a very steep jump, which many people would take much longer. It does depend on the individual. But I'm just saying that there is a high chance that you will need to work on a lot of basics which may be lacking in ways you don't realize.

I can understand your point of view, but I think that I will be playing it good, probably not as good as the prodigies (who expected that), but definitely better than you think of me right now.

I don't know how you play, but I have a rough guess, if your situation is anywhere similar to mine. I don't doubt you can play at tempo, but there will be lots of points of tension which you will try to use endurance to push through. There will probably be unevenness as well. And you will expect that over time and with practice, it will all resolve itself. It will get better for sure, but it will probably still feel a bit unstable and never fully improve.

Also, I'm NOT Josh Wright, and will probably never be as good as he is, but I will make progress. I also just turned 12 (1 and a half months ago) and I will definitely not give up.

Whoever said anything about giving up? You are still young and have talent, I'm sure you will be able to play difficult repertoire in the future. Some of the best pianists I know started at age 12. That said, for your long-term development, it is probably better to learn a large number of easier pieces where you can work on a lot of aspects of technique and musicality, instead of a small number of difficult ones played okayish. By all means continue with the Rhapsody if you want to, but try to learn a ton of easier pieces, say one every week or two, and get them pretty polished quickly. I'm saying this from my experience, I have talked to other university students and professional teachers, what often ends up happening is that you can play a couple of showpieces decently well, but it doesn't translate to other pieces you learn. Many had to relearn a lot of technique in college, and wished they had learned all of this when they were back in school.

The reason I give you this advice is because you seem to be quite determined. And that is a good thing, but you need to put it in the right direction for it to be beneficial in the long run. It's not to discourage you, but to make you think a bit more deeply about what skills you need to develop in order to become a well-rounded pianist.

I actually taught myself how to play the octave sections of the Hungarian Rhapsody, and that too at tempo, after about 4-5 years of starting the piano. I've had teachers react the same way as yours -- you can play the pieces decently well, you have some natural musicality, and they appreciate the fact that they are not going through Alfred's beginner books once again. If you have a certain facility for speed, you can get through pieces, and your teacher will tell you, crescendo a bit more here, this needs to feel like waves, make sure you cross your thumb over here, etc. You will get better, but there will usually come a point where you hit a wall because you have so many inefficiencies in your playing and because so many things are not developed. To put it in perspective, even prodigies have some 5 years of very good piano education before they can play something like the Hungarian Rhapsody well. You have only had 2 years, at most. In all probability, there are a lot of things which you still need to develop in your playing.

[visitor]

I'd probably play it after no 5
Glad I could help.

[nightwindsonata]

I'd probably play it after no 5
Glad I could help.

THIS

Great suggestion, and HR 5 is way underplayed/undervalued IMO, but it's a great introduction to all things Liszt. And it's still no means an easy piece, there are some tricky hand crossings and fast octave leaps in the culminating section that require a fair bit of practice to master! Still, it's a great gateway into all things Liszt for sure. I would also recommend checking out some of his late pieces, such as La Lugubre Gondola or Nuages Gris.

[timtim]

to the OP:
dont get me wrong, but I completely do not get your piano progres... on one hand side Alla Turca, Arabesque, Chopin 9/2 (which is not so hard technically, musically you're still to young to get  and I mean you need to get proper life experience and be like 10 years older at leat, so that's not your fault)

and at the same time Chopin 10/4, which is one of his 3/4 hardest Etudes, if the hardest. And HR6. I know that pianists should play different pieces, but you are mixing here top virtuoso pieces (and by top I mean top - you have to master finger speed, strenght, stamina, have perfect body and hands technique, great musicalicy) with the pieces I would call sort of children.

Sorry I am confused here - or these pieces were far too easy for you or Chopin 10/4 is far above your skills.
This is just not adding up for me.

Did you played other Chopin pieces?

There are many pianists who are capable of doing so - Zimerman learned Rach 2 when he was 15, Yuja Wang was playing Scherzo (1 or 2) of Chopin when 11, Cziffra (and many other geniuses) went thorught entire Chopin Studies between 11-14 years old, Arrau learned 3 Paganini Etudes within 6 weeks... but these are people from the top.

I have seen many less known pianists to play similar repertoire, but based on hat you have learned something is not right for me and I do not know what it is. In order to play Rach concerto t 15 or 16 you have to be able to play HR6 at your age, but noone here knows whether you are true genius or you are doing too hard repertoire to stand out in competition.

Posting video with your recent playing should help us tremendously.

[krncandi]

I've learned the 6th one when I was 16 after learning the hardest one which is the 9th Hungarian Rhapsody. The difficulties of the 6th one is the atrociously difficult shifting of the huge fast chords in the 2nd theme. The black note cadenza is pretty difficult. Finally the endurance of the octaves in the final theme takes a lot of time and practice. Even though it's all loud, you need to give it character and dynamics to not make it all bangy and noisy throughout. Also relax your wrist and let your fingers and wrist bounce when doing the non stop octaves.  It's a lot of fun once you master this work and perform it.