Fingering Challenge!!!!

[lostinidlewonder]

So although this is an easy piece it seemed that the one who created it has gone rather wrong with the fingering suggestion. It is logical that it might be considered a 5 finger C major root position (CDEFG) however you soon fall into problems in the future in bar 6 and 7 which become difficult to resolve.

Sometimes with fingering it is important to know what you will lead into in the future bars. So although this piece is very easy it has this future requirement which actually needs you to set it up beforehand.

Interesting situation in bar 4 where one might consider playing the quavers with 1212, however this is not as comfortable as 1312 as the 2nd finger is crossed over the thumb and to rush it to cross back over to play the E is simply unnecessary and using the 3 initially allows for a more unhurried and relaxed transition.

At least the suggested fingerings at the 3rd last Bar is a good idea.

[youngpianist]

"The most efficient fingering" is often subjective. People have different hand sizes, finger lengths, technical strengths and weaknesses.

[lostinidlewonder]

It is not as subjective as you think, certainly it is not "often" that it is subjective otherwise piano fingering would be simply a mess. It has already been stated that the most efficient solution for the NORMAL hand is being given, if people have unusual differences they can use these as a compass and make small adjustments as required but this will include a smaller % of the pianist compared to those with normal hands. If you want to prove your point with exact examples that would be good because just generalizing doesn't mean much in this thread. Certainly often would be the case that the differences are a single number here or there, certainly not enough to call the overall solution subjective.

[klavieronin]

"The most efficient fingering" is often subjective. People have different hand sizes, finger lengths, technical strengths and weaknesses.

Don't bother going there. Trust me, I already tried. You can't win an argument against lostinidlewonder. He's like a terminator or argumentation; he can't be bargained with, he cant be reasoned with, he doesn't feel pity or remorse or fear, and he absolutely will not stop... EVER…

Also, I realised, after trying to make the same point as you, that finding "the most efficient fingering" doesn't necessarily preclude the possibility that different fingerings might suit some people more than others, as lostinidlewonder has already acknowledged. It's just not what this topic is about. This topic is specifically focused on finding the maximally efficient fingering for certain passages (unless I have once again misunderstood).

[lostinidlewonder]

Never trust someone who says "Trust me".

I can't help it that I consider myself an authority on the topic of fingering, that comes with almost 3 decades of teaching piano and no one needs to feel threatened about by that, trying to guess how I function doesn't really add to the discussion in any case klav. If someone doesn't agree with someone else and debates an issue this should be encouraged not cried about, you need clashing of ideologies to produce interesting results.

If someone thinks it is SOOOO subjective then prove it with exact examples, I will show you that it is not as subjective as one thinks. Like I said it might be one finger here or there that is changed, it is not going to be an utterly new solution mututally exclusive to any of the solutions given here which consider the normal pianistic hands playing. So the argument that it is subjective is simply irrational.

Do you think that if someone makes a fingering challenge thread they need to suggest ideas for people with a short 2, how about thick fingers, or someone who can only reach a 7th, what about people missing a finger, or a short 4, how about someone with very large hands like a basketball player, no wait lets discuss fingerings for someone who has arthritis, no wait someone with a stroke what would they do, etc etc. No, we just logically discuss the normal hand, one which is capable of playing the piano without hinderance, then those who have specific issues can make SMALL adjustments, it is rather logical.

This thread is about discussing exact fingering examples not generalizing which people do far too much of. That is why we don't have as many people giving examples and supporting themselves, they actually need to prove they know what they are talking about and not simply copy paste finger numbers. Support yourself.

[klavieronin]

You are so easily worked up. Did you even read my second paragraph?

[lostinidlewonder]

Why do you think I am worked up? Just because I have responded with a rebuttal using more than 2 sentences? I read everything you should know that piano discussion is interesting to me and piano education is my profession so I will read everything in threads I create, why wouldn't I?

I already elabroated that although there may be differences for particular hands the difference will only be very small changes, it is not going to produce a result that is utterly different from the efficient solution. If you want to debate that issue then I am glad to, bring up examples and let's discuss it. Just keeping it in generalized form really doesn't reveal much. Personally I don't think such things are important, but if you want to take an exact example and describe a specific hand type which will make changes then let us do so, we can compare what a normal hand would do vs the lesser hand which needs changes and we will see that the difference is not that great, at least not so great to say the whole process of determining the best fingering is an utterly subjective matter.

[klavieronin]

… the difference is not that great, at least not so great to say the whole process of determining the best fingering is an utterly subjective matter.

I'm not making that argument. All I was doing was reaffirming what I believe you meant this topic to be about; that is, finding the maximally efficient fingering for certain passages of music. I was merely trying to clarify to youngpianist that this topic is not a general discussion about fingering, which is a mistake that I had previously made.

[lostinidlewonder]

I'm not making that argument. All I was doing was reaffirming what I believe you meant this topic to be about; that is, finding the maximally efficient fingering for certain passages of music. I was merely trying to clarify to youngpianist that this topic is not a general discussion about fingering, which is a mistake that I had previously made.

The poster before you however is suggesting that it is a "subjective" matter which it is obviously not. To which you responded "Don't bother going there. Trust me, I already tried."

It is not a "general discussion about fingerings" in the sense that we should be offering exact finger numbers to support ourselves and then words attached to that, logic behind the fingerings explained, reasonings rather than speaking in "generalizations" without any exact examples to support yourself. It is general in the sense that the most efficient solution will be the best answer for the vast majority of hands given that "general" means: affecting or concerning all or most people or things; widespread.

[lostinidlewonder]

CHALLENGE No 9:
Here's another simple one. What is the best right hand fingers for melody here? The solution considers using minimal positional changes.

[ranjit]

1 23 41 34
53 21 321 23
21 34 51 34
53 21 321 32

[lostinidlewonder]

I noticed you used 1234 at the start and then later you used 1345 for the same group of notes, it is like using two different solutions for the same thing. Of course this piece is very easy and you can get away with a lot without any problems at all.

The easiest solutions I believe is to see the piece in 2 positions using all the fingers for each group: CDEFG (red) and E_GABC (blue) boxes included in the solution. The entire piece then can be played with just these two positions and the fingerings easily determined. Phrasing is not shown in the piece but moving from one coloured group to the other often phrases the piece well especially in the first position change thus using the 2 to start the blue group is perfectly fine. The consistent idea of finger replacement (G to G and E to E with different fingers) when shifting between the groups is also a helpful constant.

[ranjit]

Yes, I observed that it was possible to solve this using two positions. However, I thought it was more comfortable to pivot from the 4 onto a new position (starting with the thumb) rather than the 5. What do you think about that?

[lostinidlewonder]

Yes, I observed that it was possible to solve this using two positions. However, I thought it was more comfortable to pivot from the 4 onto a new position (starting with the thumb) rather than the 5. What do you think about that?

You mean your initial 1234 1, which then you used 1345 1 when it repeated? I would weigh whether an expansion/contraction transition is worth it as well as creating extra positions to allow it, also having to play 13 after that having to ensure that the 2nd is not used adds to the challenge of your solution. The idea of "pivoting" is not necessarily required here I feel since you can phrase it by lifting the hand and maintaining a similar hand position without having to contract/expand to get the 2 into position which musically sounds correct. Also the idea of replacing fingers with different fingers feels secure because you feel the note you are moving to before you move there.

[lostinidlewonder]

CHALLENGE No 10:
This little passage has a trick to it that might not be so obvious at first glance.

[lelle]

Moahaha I sometimes like doing stuff like

232124 543213 214321

Not sure if that's the trick though.

[lostinidlewonder]

What do you think is the trick?

[ranjit]

What do you think is the trick?

My understanding is the 4 down to the 5 was the trick. I can't think of a better fingering myself, if it's anything else I'd be surprised.

[lostinidlewonder]

Yes that's it Ranjit. Lelle gave the best fingering. This is from bar 24-26 Minute Waltz from Chopin, quite a famous example.

232125 432143 214321 although possible has a slightly awkward feel to it by comparison with the initial 4 crossing the thumb on Gb to F being the most unusual, and also the colour change of the thumb being unnecessary. It is a possible solution that can be mastered but lelle's solution is superior.

If the fingering is presented in movement groups we would have:

23212 454321 321 4321 (superior) where the 454 movement is unusual but good, it does requires that there no isolated movement in the 4th to feel good and that you use the 5ths placement to align the 4th into place rather than the 4 moving in isolation or remaining near it's note when the 5th plays which would feel terrible. The thumb is always on a white note which promotes stability and we are turning 3 on the group of 2 blacks and 4 on the group of 3 blacks which is nice logical scale fingering which also feels secure.

vs

23212 54321 4321 4321 (inferior) where the start of the descending scale initially is easier but then what follows is not as comfortable as explained before,  certainly the thumbs colour change is not as stable as the better solution. It is of course doable but not as good by comparison.

[ranjit]

Yes that's it Ranjit. Lelle gave the best fingering. This is from bar 24-26 Minute Waltz from Chopin, quite a famous example.

Oh, funny I didn't recognize it! I actually did come up with the best fingering several years ago when I first learned it, now that I think about it, I think this one actually comes quite intuitively if you simply try to play it on the piano and don't intellectualize it.

[lostinidlewonder]

I'm not sure what you mean by "intellectualizing" fingering. You do need to analyze the options and weigh which is better since often we have multiple options when it comes to piano fingerings. The option I gave is an intuitive solution which doesn't work as well as the better one. So if one does not weigh the options how can you come to the conclusion of what is better? They both feel ok but of course the more efficient fingering lelle provided feels better.

[ranjit]

I mean that I think that the solution with the 454 is not obvious when you look at the score, but intuitively seems quite obvious at the keyboard after some experimentation. Intellectual modality vs tactile modality, so to speak.

[lostinidlewonder]

Of course just looking at the score alone is more difficult than actually playing it physically. I wouldn't underestimate the variation of what is considered "intuitive" though thus being able to discern which options are better is quite an essential skill to get good at, and putting it in words rather than mere feelings allows you to share your solutions with others or enter discussion with your teacher.

[lostinidlewonder]

CHALLENGE No 11:

This is from Bach's well known Cello Suite No 1 in G major BWV 1007. If this is played with only the LH what do you think is the best fingering for first few bars?

[lostinidlewonder]

There is a repetitive fingering solution: 5212 1312 which solves all of these bars. This is somewhat better than using 5312 1313. 1313 doesn't tend to push the 5 down again for the next group, where 1312, the 2 will naturally push the 5 down once more.

[lostinidlewonder]

A famous piece, how would you hold these minums for their full duration?

This is played with the LEFT HAND.

[lelle]

I'm assuming with a combination of start on either 1 or 2 and then silently switching depending on where you need to go next, so that you can bind these notes together legato.

[lostinidlewonder]

Sorry lelle I should have added that this is played with the LEFT HAND. I posted this when it was pretty late, so absent minded of me  :'(

Yes the idea is silently switching. The piece is for organ so holding the notes is more important.

[lelle]

I think my general solution would be to switch so that if I am going from a black to a white key held note, I'd be playing 4 going to 5, and if I were playing a white key to a black, I'd playing 5 going to 4, and make any necessary switches inbetween to be able to accomplish that.

[lostinidlewonder]

I agree lelle with what you are saying, but I think you use a combination of 543 for those held notes.