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Topic: Fingering Challenge!!!!  (Read 7550 times)

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Fingering Challenge!!!!
on: January 21, 2022, 04:44:56 PM
Let's post images of passages and see if you can come up with the most efficient fingering. This can be very instructional in terms of developing technical awareness at the keyboard, the logic of fingering is king!


Here is one example I did recently with ranjit,

Beethoven Landler WoO 11 no 1:
Question: What is the most efficient fingering for the RH?
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Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #1 on: January 22, 2022, 12:14:00 AM
Well... we used to do this at Uni, so here's my answer. Did it without touching the piano.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #2 on: January 22, 2022, 12:21:02 AM
Oh I didn't know they did such things at uni, that's pretty cool!
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Offline klavieronin

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #3 on: January 22, 2022, 12:21:58 AM
Of course, it depends of the size of the pianists hands but here's my answer.



https://www.mediafire.com/view/5xuamdggbebfez0/Beet-Fing.jpg/file

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #4 on: January 22, 2022, 03:03:58 AM
If we consider normal hand sizes there is really not much variation. So I like your solution klavieronin and would use predominantly what you suggest although PP had the right idea as well in parts.

The key to solving this is to notice that the thumb does not need to leave the A, it remains there the whole time. This made me think that perhaps this was improvised by Beethoven when he was just mucking about with single positions. Lesser solutions would cause the thumb to move about, certainly keeping the thumb away from the F# is desireable.

Secondly I believe the best solution also never uses the 3rd finger. If the 1st and 5th cause much change to the hand when playing black notes then the 3rd finger is the next most influential finger in the hand in terms of positioning. It is a good idea when choosing fingering to keep the 3rd finger the same color if possible. Using the 3rd finger in the 4th measure as klavieronin suggested is ok although if it is not used instead the octave leap up is not as wide (keep the hand open), if it is not used also the islolated use of the 3 doesn't need to be remembered. Also not allowing the 3rd finger to play a white note keeps the hand position high so that the cross over to the F# is effortless.

Thus the solution for this passage is as follow:



Someone can post another challenge or I will do another some time down the track.
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Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #5 on: January 22, 2022, 03:29:25 AM
My follow up to your advice would be - my finger doesn't need to have any finger go over the thumb especially in the 3rd bar, which to me seems a little unnecessary.

Also, are bars 3 and 4 also slurred, or is a piano player allowed to play them mezzo-staccato to give a little contrast to the passage? If so, I think this would make my fingering easier to play than yours; this would also apply to the lifting of the hand at the end of each slur in bars 1, 2, 5 & 6. Sure your fingering would make sense if every single note in the RH was perfectly legato, but I somehow sense that might not be the case?

Do we actually have any urtext editions which state the fingering Beethoven wanted? Or at least an editor close to the time Beethoven was alive?

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #6 on: January 22, 2022, 03:43:00 AM
My follow up to your advice would be - my finger doesn't need to have any finger go over the thumb especially in the 3rd bar, which to me seems a little unnecessary.
I would say the A octave leap with 2 5 as you suggested although we should be able to do this is unnecessary in this situation and the thumb stuck on A provides more control. The thumb transferring to a black note also disrupts the position of the hand unnecessarily, of course we should be able to do such things but it is not as easy as the cross over.

Also, are bars 3 and 4 also slurred, or is a piano player allowed to play them mezzo-staccato to give a little contrast to the passage? If so, I think this would make my fingering easier to play than yours; this would also apply to the lifting of the hand at the end of each slur in bars 1, 2, 5 & 6. Sure your fingering would make sense if every single note in the RH was perfectly legato, but I somehow sense that might not be the case?
I don't think either your or my fingering makes the passage any more difficult in this phrasing respect. I like the idea that with my fingering the 2nd finger starts predominantly every bar, that is quite consistent and secure feeling. I think that using 3 in bar 3 is not so correct since you have to move that finger to the left to catch it, where if you use 2 since it is already at the C# the hand doesn't have to make any isolated finger movements.

Do we actually have any urtext editions which state the fingering Beethoven wanted? Or at least an editor close to the time Beethoven was alive?
If you find it please post, I think klav and I however are correct though, the logic all fits well and the point we differ upon is very minor. To me the key answer is, RH thumb stuck on A always and there is no need to use the 3rd finger, so anyone who has lost their 3rd finger should be happy playing this ^_^
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Offline klavieronin

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #7 on: January 22, 2022, 05:00:15 AM
The key to solving this is to notice that the thumb does not need to leave the A, it remains there the whole time.

I considered this but decided to give the thumb a little rest in that 4th bar. I also thought, since the thumb is prone to being a little 'heavy' at times, this fingering might help the music sound a little less mechanical, since you aren't playing the same note with the same finger every off beat for those two bars. But I agree your fingering is probably more efficient.

Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #8 on: January 22, 2022, 09:03:56 AM
I also don't know the tempo. Is it meant to be fast???

I think that using 3 in bar 3 is not so correct since you have to move that finger to the left to catch it

It's a perfectly acceptable fingering for the D Dominant 7th Arpeggio in 3rd inversion. E to C# is really not that far. The 4 is already poised on the E beforehand (2nd bar), so it's not that hard to reach to a C# with 3. 'Not so correct' implies that it could incorrect (as in not acceptable), but I don't think that's the case. I don't see why it isn't correct.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #9 on: January 22, 2022, 09:14:20 AM
I also don't know the tempo. Is it meant to be fast???
It would be around 90 crotchet beats per min, i'ts not so fast or slow as to cause any fingering changes at least and nevertheless optimal fingering will deal with any tempo in this case.

 
It's a perfectly acceptable fingering for the D Dominant 7th Arpeggio in 3rd inversion. E to C# is really not that far. The 4 is already poised on the E beforehand (2nd bar), so it's not that hard to reach to a C# with 3. 'Not so correct' implies that it could incorrect (as in not acceptable), but I don't think that's the case. I don't see why it isn't correct.
I mean not as correct to mean not as correct, not wrong unless the most efficient is the only right answer. It is possible but it is not as efficient by comparison that is what you need to compare. Why play the C# with a 3 if the 2 is on there the whole time? It is a case of moving when you really don't need to. Also playing that thumb on F# is not as good for sure and the octave A with 25, certainly not the easiest option. One cannot legitimately say these are WRONG ideas since there are occasions when we are forced into doing such movements, but if we can play something else easier then that should be what we gravitate towards when formulating the most efficient fingerings.
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Offline anacrusis

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #10 on: February 04, 2022, 04:57:37 PM
Here's my solution. While I could keep passing over the thumb like in earlier solutions, to me, the following fingering helps me feel like I'm moving more smoothly and more easily attain the legato or phrasing that I want.

Offline klavieronin

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #11 on: February 05, 2022, 03:52:36 AM
Here's my solution. While I could keep passing over the thumb like in earlier solutions, to me, the following fingering helps me feel like I'm moving more smoothly and more easily attain the legato or phrasing that I want.

You must have a long 5th finger  ;)

Offline perfect_pitch

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #12 on: February 05, 2022, 04:24:31 AM
You must have a long 5th finger  ;)

Didn't seem that awkward for me.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #13 on: February 05, 2022, 07:39:54 AM
Here's my solution. While I could keep passing over the thumb like in earlier solutions, to me, the following fingering helps me feel like I'm moving more smoothly and more easily attain the legato or phrasing that I want.
I don't think that the 5th moving from C# to D is a very good idea in this case.
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Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #14 on: February 07, 2022, 04:39:37 PM
Challenge No 2

This one although shorter is more difficult to resolve the most efficient solution for.

It's in A major (F#C#G#) BPM 87. What is the best RH fingerings?

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Offline ranjit

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #15 on: February 07, 2022, 08:01:29 PM
313 1321 3134 3231 4

Offline klavieronin

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #16 on: February 07, 2022, 08:12:59 PM
5 4 5   4 3 2 1   5 4 3 4   3 2 3 1   4

Challenge No 2
This one although shorter is more difficult to resolve the most efficient solution for.

I felt like this one was actually easier than the other one.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #17 on: February 08, 2022, 12:59:41 AM
I felt like this one was actually easier than the other one.
I think the best solution is still yet to be revealed. This example is where the logical fingering is not the best. I agree it ends with 314.

313 1321 3134 3231 4
Your 3 is changing colour (black/white keys) a number of times here which makes the playing a little more challenging, you can avoid that. The main idea is to avoid "knitting" between the fingers, it's the last two demisemiquaver groups that pose the most problematic question in that respect, the 2nd last needs to set up a good condition for the last group.

3231 (G#F#G#E) at the end causes tension in the hand and should be avoided, if it were just this in isolation the fingering would be ok.

A good test is to play the last group connected to the final note over and over again at rapid speed. You will find 32314 repeated over and over again starts to feel tricky due to finger knitting.
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Offline klavieronin

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #18 on: February 08, 2022, 06:56:11 AM
I think the best solution is still yet to be revealed. This example is where the logical fingering is not the best. I agree it ends with 314.

Well then, my only other answers would be;

5 4 5   4 3 2 1   2 1 3 1   3 2 3 1   4
or
5 4 5   4 3 2 1   4 3 2 4   3 2 3 1   4

but I still think I prefer my first answer.

Offline ranjit

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #19 on: February 08, 2022, 08:17:00 AM
Whatever it is I don't see it. The only other thing I could think of which could possibly work is 2131 or 2132. There aren't that many possibilities because bringing the 4 in on a black key looks like it will slow you down. 3241 or something will be even knottier.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #20 on: February 09, 2022, 03:52:44 AM
The only other thing I could think of which could possibly work is 2131....
Yes this for the last demisemiquaver group. It creates an anticlockwise type direction in the fingerings promoted by the thumbs movement which is extremely comfortable compared to any knitting and weaving about the fingers.

The reason to start with a 4 instead of the 5 is that the 15 transfer is not as comfortable when entering the 3rd demisemiquaver group compared to the cross over solution 34, although the difference is small. There is also the synergy with the Lh chord, coming together with the RH thumb is much more desireable.

This was from a post I responded to a while back:
https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/p5iwq7/help_with_fingering/h99bw96/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Someone can post the next challenge or I will do another one later on.
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Offline klavieronin

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #21 on: February 09, 2022, 05:11:43 AM
Respectfully disagree. Not only am I not convinced this is the best fingering, I'm not convinced it's even a good fingering. There is just too much wrong with it. You have the thumb on a black key when it doesn't need to be, you have the hand passing over the thumb landing on a white key when it doesn't need to, plus this crossover happens off the beat running the risk of accenting a note that shouldn't be accented, then you have the least agile finger (the thumb) moving from the F# to E in fairly quick succession.

I sure you won't mind my saying, but this is a terrible fingering and I think you failed your own challenge.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #22 on: February 09, 2022, 07:21:30 AM
Respectfully disagree. Not only am I not convinced this is the best fingering, I'm not convinced it's even a good fingering. There is just too much wrong with it
Earlier on in my piano journey there were fingerings that I thought where absolutely ridiculous but it was only until I submitted that there must be something to it that I started adding a large range of unintuitive ideas to my fingering library which enhanced my understanding of piano technique a great deal.

There is a large amount of fingerings in piano that counters to what one's intuition expects and challenge no 2 happens to be one of them. The logical fingerings is in fact inefficient by comparison, with tension points (especially the 34 3231 4, try doing that over and over again and your fingers will die, compared to 23 2131 4, it simply wins by a far margin). I strongly advise you resolve that it is a possible solution that feels totally comfortable because if not there is something wrong with your execution. I don't know if I really want to start posting videos to prove points it's just going to take up more time than I wish for this thread, I think the fingering alone should provide sufficient food for thought. 

This can be a rather disconcerting situation for some since piano has a lot of these unintuitive situations and the logical path may not necessarily be correct, I can post more of them and will in the future (maybe not a large amount since it's good to have more logical situations too). Claudio Arrau spoke of circular technique in the fingerings and this is a good example of it.

You have the thumb on a black key when it doesn't need to be
In fact this unintuitive solution removes the need for knitting between the fingers which feels very bad by comparison. If you have the technical capability you should admit that it feels fine and is not wrong at all.

you have the hand passing over the thumb landing on a white key when it doesn't need to
I don't see the problem with this, you mean when you transfer from B to A with 13 (the only cross over thumb point in my solution)? That is no problem at all and completely standard, compared to 51 moving from A to B this doesn't feel as good, although the difference is quite small. However if you take the LH into account the synergy between the RH playing a thumb together with the Lh chord feels a lot more secure than playing any other finger in the RH connected with the LH chord, thus promoting my solution more so than the logical one.

plus this crossover happens off the beat running the risk of accenting a note that shouldn't be accented
This is a problem for one with poor control, the fingering itself does not promote that and the Lh chord on the offbeat should make you wonder too.

then you have the least agile finger (the thumb) moving from the F# to E in fairly quick succession.
That is the key point of this unintiuitive fingerings as it avoids the weaving between the fingers, you merely have to attempt that fingering of the last system over and over again to demonstrate it is superior to the logical idea of 3231 4 at the end. The fact that you can move in an anticlockwise motion aided by the thumbs movement also makes catching the 4 very easy since the rotation supports its entry, this removes the tension, if you play it in a stagnant position that is much more tense because you have no motion to promote the direction.

I sure you won't mind my saying, but this is a terrible fingering and I think you failed your own challenge.
I knew that this example would ruffle some feathers because of its unintuitive nature so I take no offense at all.  People merely need to compare to know that the logical fingering just doesn't stand up to the unintiutive solution, it is not a matter of opinion. If you have the correct technique it is vastly superior to the logical ideology. Merely test the two fingerings at rapid tempo with constant repetition: 34 3231 4  vs 23 2131 4, the stagnant logical fingerings will tire you out and confuse your fingerings much more so than the fluid unintuitive solution of mine which can be done over and over again without problem. You need to realize that this is also not played slowly it is quite rapid so rapid repetitions is a good test.
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Offline klavieronin

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #23 on: February 09, 2022, 08:54:59 AM


Jokes aside, I don't agree with any of that and I strongly suggest you read Penelope Roskell's "The Art of Piano Fingering"

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #24 on: February 09, 2022, 08:58:51 AM
Gosh klavieronin what happened to respectfully disagreeing lol. I mean I don't care if you change your mind or not, but at least engage in a proper discussion if you want to attempt to show that I am wrong. So far your critique doesn't hold up one bit. Try to prove anything I said was wrong and I will help you try to understand as I have already done (of which you have no response to).

Throwing down names of books and asking someone to read it is utterly meaningless. I suggest you do more fingering challenges :) Or perhaps avoid this thread if you are going to get your knickers in a twist.
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Offline klavieronin

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #25 on: February 09, 2022, 10:12:32 AM
Haha… Who's getting their knickers in a twist? Not me. I happen not to agree with you and posted a meme as a joke. I assumed that with all the sh*t you've given other people on this forum you'd be able to take a joke. I'll guess know better next time.

To be honest, I didn't argue my case because I didn't see the point. I already said what was I thought wrong with your fingering. I didn't want to have to say it all again. If you disagree with me, fine. As long as others reading this thread don't get the impression that your answer is the one correct answer, then I'm happy.

But since you asked, I'll try once more to explain why I think your fingering is less than optimal.

The logical fingerings is in fact inefficient by comparison, with tension points (especially the 34 3231 4, try doing that over and over again and your fingers will die, compared to 23 2131 4, it simply wins by a far margin).

Here you are spreading the work of four fingers over three. Try giving 3 people the work of four and see how they go.
If repeating 34 3231 4 over and over is causing you tension then try adding some circular motion in the wrists. But the truth is, you only play this once so then is no reason it should cause any tension, unless you are holding tension in your hands unnecessarily.

I strongly advise you resolve that it is a possible solution that feels totally comfortable because if not there is something wrong with your excecution.

Ditto

About the thumb on the black key;
In fact this unintuitive solution removes the need for knitting between the fingers which feels very bad by comparison. If you have the technical capability you should admit that it feels fine and is not wrong at all.

Yes, it feels fine but it's unnecessary and inefficient. In order to get the thumb on the black key, you have to move your hand up on the keyboard (since the thumb is shorter than the other fingers) and then quickly back down. That is two movements you could avoid by using a different fingering. There is a reason why a B Major scale is easier to play than most other scales. It fits beautifully under the hand. The long fingers play the black keys and the short fingers play the white keys.

This fact should inform much of your fingering choices when it comes to playing music and is also the reason why it is best to cross the hand over the thumb onto a black key (descending in the right hand and ascending in the left hand). It fits better under the hands, requires the hand to move a shorter distance and is therefore more efficient.

About crossing over off the beat;
This is a problem for one with poor control, the fingering itself does not promote that and the Lh chord on the offbeat should make you wonder too.

Yes, but why make it harder for your self. You have to consider the music when choosing fingering and if a fingering makes it easier to put the accents in the right place then you should choose that fingering (all else being equal, of course)

About the thumb moving from F# to E;
That is the key point of this unintiuitive fingerings as it avoids the weaving between the fingers, you merely have to attempt that fingering of the last system over and over again to demonstrate it is superior to the logical idea of 3231 4 at the end. The fact that you can move in an anticlockwise motion aided by the thumbs movement also makes catching the 4 very easy since the rotation supports its entry, this removes the tension, if you play it in a stagnant position that is much more tense because you have no motion to promote the direction.

"Weaving between the fingers" as you put it shouldn't be a problem. It's grade 1 Czerny. Again, add some circular motion in the wrist and any tension you have will vanish.

Merely test the two fingerings at rapid tempo with constant repetition: 34 3231 4  vs 23 2131 4, the stagnant logical fingerings will tire you out and confuse your fingerings much more so than the fluid unintuitive solution of mine which can be done over and over again without problem.

I did, and a disagree.

I don't expect any of this to convince you, of course. You seem pretty confident that your fingering is the best. If it works for you then great, use it. But like I said initially, I just don't want others reading this thread to think that there is no disagreement and no alternative.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #26 on: February 09, 2022, 10:36:22 AM
Haha… Who's getting their knickers in a twist? Not me. I happen not to agree with you and posted a meme as a joke. I assumed that with all the sh*t you've given other people on this forum you'd be able to take a joke. I'll guess know better next time.
If you want to joke you can do that but I'm sure it's only you laughing at your own joke. This thread is somewhat serious since there is not many places on the internet where we discuss specific fingerings within a musical context and in a concrete manner, so how about you take it more seriously and not just say YOU'RE WRONG, EVERYTHING IS WRONG!! Makes you sound like a cry baby not a joker. FWIW I don't have any aim to give people "sh*t" I call them up on what they say, people need to be more accurate with their opinions, if they get upset I call them up on that then it's their own fault.

To be honest, I didn't argue my case because I didn't see the point. I already said what was I thought wrong with your fingering. I didn't want to have to say it all again. If you disagree with me, fine. As long as others reading this thread don't get the impression that your answer is the one correct answer, then I'm happy.
How about you contend with my rebuttal of your critique? It is all up there. Instead of saying its wrong if you don't understand it you say you don't understand it. If you say it is WRONG you need to prove your point, so far your points have all been quashed.

Here you are spreading the work of four fingers over three. Try giving 3 people the work of four and see how they go.
This has no point, what is your point?

If repeating 34 3231 4 over and over is causing you tension then try adding some circular motion in the wrists.
No circular motion to the wrist is required. I can do your fingering perfectly fine but it is inferior to my solution. The idea of optimal fingerings is to COMPARE, and the logical solution which is rather mindless does not stand up to the more fluid solution I have provided.

But the truth is, you only play this once so then is no reason it should cause any tension, unless you are holding tension in your hands unnecessarily.
Perhaps you have not tested fingerings before, repeating them over and over again to determine which one feel better is a common tactic. You need that repetition over and over again to feel the compounded effects of the inferior logical fingering you provided, where my solution always feels supple and comfortable, no problems with multiple repeats thus pointing in the direction of being much better.

Ditto
You cannot say ditto because I didn't say your fingering was WRONG and BAD and a FAILURE like you expressed about my optimal solution which is best. If you think my solution is wrong it is because your technical capability is failing simple as that.

About the thumb on the black key;
Yes, it feels fine but it's unnecessary and inefficient. In order to get the thumb on the black key, you have to move your hand up on the keyboard (since the thumb is shorter than the other fingers) and then quickly back down. That is two movements you could avoid by using a different fingering. There is a reason why a B Major scale is easier to play than most other scales. It fits beautifully under the hand. The long fingers play the black keys and the short fingers play the white keys.
You fail to express your argument with context of the music at hand. Try again. There is nothing wrong with a thumb playing a black and moving to white, surely you have come across it before, unless all you play is basic stuff. You said you have to MOVE YOUR HAND UP for the thumb to play the black note, I contend that your technique is inefficient, if your hand is held high the whole time the thumbs position does not require any major positional change at all, and in fact the thumbs movement promotes a small anticlockwise type motion (which makes the final 4 feel very natural as your fingerings are moving in that direction) within the fingerings which is much more relaxing than the weaving between the fingers.

This fact should inform much of your fingering choices when it comes to playing music and is also the reason why it is best to cross the hand over the thumb onto a black key (descending in the right hand and ascending in the left hand). It fits better under the hands, requires the hand to move a shorter distance and is therefore more efficient.
What are you talking about "is best to cross the hand over the thumb onto a black key"? You are placing a restriction here without any reasoning with the actual score at hand. It is up there so you need to explain with the actual notes not just talk in generalisations. You need to also notice when the LH chord comes together with the RH, you still have no answer that the THUMB in the RH works much better with the chord in the LH.

About crossing over off the beat;

Yes, but why make it harder for your self. You have to consider the music when choosing fingering and if a fingering makes it easier to put the accents in the right place then you should choose that fingering (all else being equal, of course)
Again you failed to notice how the LH is interacting with the RH, the LH plays on an offbeat thus the thumb in the RH works much better and your fingering does not.

About the thumb moving from F# to E;
"Weaving between the fingers" as you put it shouldn't be a problem. It's grade 1 Czerny. Again, add some circular motion in the wrist and any tension you have will vanish.
No need for any circular wrist motion at all. Thumb from F# to E is no problems at all and the weaving solution you provided is much more tense than controlling the thumb movement by comparison. You do realize that the passage I posted is rapid, it's not a slow movement. With appropriate technique your hand position does not change as the thumb moves from black to white, you keep your hand position high it's no problems, if you play excessively low then of course it will feel like your thumb climbs up onto the F# and then back down to the E, that is a failure in execution not the fingering.

I did, and a disagree.
You were too strong in your disagreement which prompted me to believe you don't have the technical capability to actually test the two in a correct manner. Perhaps you are too stuck in logical fingerings, that is a tough one to break away from but I hope one day you do since you merely will make your students play with tension when they need not to.

I don't expect any of this to convince you, of course. You seem pretty confident that your fingering is the best. If it works for you then great, use it. But like I said initially, I just don't want others reading this thread to think that there is no disagreement and no alternative.
I completely encourage debate of fingerings that is what the point of this thread is about. It risks people getting hurt when pointed out solutions they didn't know, you do have to sacrifice your babies to develop, staying stuck with only logical deductions causes you to miss out on a whole world of unintuitive fingerings in piano which is very important for developing pianists. I might come across as overly confident when discussing fingerings but it has been my job for almost 30 years now so I feel I am an authority on the topic, teaching optimal fingerings is the bread and butter of good piano technique education.

My fingering is the best, I have provided a lot of information as to why, anyone with the technical capability to play my solution vs the inefficient logical solution will admit my solution is better. It is just the science of the fingerings, there is no opinion about it. It's not only worked for me but other people too, you can see the reddit link I provided where this question as posted. The reddit OP called me a "genius" (a bit of an over reaction) so there you go lol.
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Offline brogers70

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #27 on: February 09, 2022, 11:46:02 AM
Well then, my only other answers would be;

5 4 5   4 3 2 1   2 1 3 1   3 2 3 1   4
or
5 4 5   4 3 2 1   4 3 2 4   3 2 3 1   4

but I still think I prefer my first answer.

I like the second of the two above best; all three of yours feel fine, though, the differences are small.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #28 on: February 09, 2022, 12:19:31 PM
They are fine if you play slowly, the passage is quite rapid though.
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Offline brogers70

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #29 on: February 09, 2022, 12:45:12 PM
They are fine if you play slowly, the passage is quite rapid though.
I thought it was clear the question was about what worked at a rapid tempo.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #30 on: February 09, 2022, 12:58:29 PM
Ah good you find it clear, I didn't reenforce that tempo was somewhat rapid (it actually sounds a bit better faster than the suggested tempo). They are demisemiquavers it might be hard to see that for some.
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Offline ranjit

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #31 on: February 09, 2022, 06:01:15 PM
I can go faster with 32314 than 21314. 21314 is maybe mildly more comfortable, but I simply can't play as fast with 2131.

I've attached a recording. The first few iterations use 21314, and the ones at the end use 32314.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #32 on: February 10, 2022, 12:50:51 AM
It's a technical point, you notice it's more comfortable, both should be possible without problem but the advantages of the fluid movement is quite obvious when compared. Like I said I really don't want to have to post videos (I can show you one day in person though) and explain how to do it exactly, since it's a teachers section I'd expect teachers to have the technical prowess to do both with complete control. Tracing the thumbs movement to the F# to E creates an anticlockwise motion which removes the weaving between fingers and promotes natural direction of the fingering couples. Your playing sounds clearer with my fingering than the other one which has the weaving tension to contend with.
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Offline ranjit

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #33 on: February 10, 2022, 06:41:24 AM
Your playing sounds clearer with my fingering than the other one which has the weaving tension to contend with.
It does sacrifice some speed, though. You simply can't do 2131 as fast as you can do 3231.
It's a weird idea but I sort of do see why it works. I don't know if I'd call it weaving tension -- the main problem 32314 creates is that 3 and 4 sort of work against each other due to all of the directional changes, and that wouldn't work well because they share a tendon.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #34 on: February 10, 2022, 06:54:22 AM
I can do my fingering faster and consistent than the logical one with multiple repeats. Any speed sacrifice is a techncial issue to correct. Those directional changes between the fingering couples are the nature of the weaving, yes we should be able to do it but I argue it's more tense by comparison.
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Offline klavieronin

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #35 on: February 12, 2022, 03:49:19 AM
Here's two challenges for the price of one;

First from Beethoven - Sonata in Eb, Op. 31 No.3, 1st mvt.


And the second from Ravel - Concerto for the Left Hand Alone


I'm looking for not the most "efficient" or "optimal" fingering but rather, a fingering that effectively brings out the rhythm of the music.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #36 on: February 12, 2022, 05:04:46 AM
The most efficient and optimal fingerings will make the basic rhythm, articulation and musicality come through easier so I don't see how you can mutually exclude it. I will not answer yet let the question stand for others to try first. Good puzzle though the Beethoven should also show the LH so synergy between hands can be measured and also what the RH came from so the first note of your puzzle can be more securely determined (it of course starts with a 4, but that would not be understood without knowing what it came from).
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Offline klavieronin

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #37 on: February 12, 2022, 06:54:47 AM
The most efficient and optimal fingerings will make the basic rhythm, articulation and musicality come through easier so I don't see how you can mutually exclude it.

I wouldn't say they were mutually exclusive, but some pianists may decide to compromise a little bit on efficiency in order to serve the music better.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #38 on: February 12, 2022, 07:19:27 AM
If fingering allows the musicality to shine through more clearly I don't see how it is a less efficient choice by comparison, efficiency by definition means a number of factors are satisfied, the physical feeling and the musical control (I am being precise here since this is the crux of the entire thread, if you are argue that efficient fingerings are not as good as musical fingerings I would say the two need to combine to actually create the whole picture of efficiency, thus they are strongly mutually dependent on one another). Using the same fingers for the repeated figures in the Beethoven example for instance doesn't mean that it is more physically efficient, it might feel easier to the inexperienced hands but it is of course less efficient because other fingering actually promotes the phrasing combined with a physically easier execution (still you will see people perform with the same fingers and sound fine but that doesn't promote the easiest solution).
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Offline klavieronin

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #39 on: February 12, 2022, 11:05:59 AM
If fingering allows the musicality to shine through more clearly I don't see how it is a less efficient choice by comparison…

I was trying to make a distinction between efficacy and efficiency but perhaps I should have used the term "economical" instead - or at least put "efficient" in quote marks. I thought my meaning was clear but I guess not. I think this is why conversations on the internet so often go so horribly wrong.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #40 on: February 12, 2022, 11:31:30 AM
I'm looking for not the most "efficient" or "optimal" fingering but rather, a fingering that effectively brings out the rhythm of the music.
This is what is somewhat unnecessary, when you said you dont want what I asked for in the opening post its a mystery what you really mean exactly if you mean to isolate efficiency from the solution using NOT. If we come up with the best fingering it will be efficient and effectively bring out qualities in the music. The very opening posts asks for these kind of fingerings so it was confusing why you wanted to try and make some other definition that isolates efficiency from the solution (something that doesn't make sense in my mind because efficiency includes allowing you to produce the desired sound with minimal effort). Best not to argue semantics and just deal with the fingerings, we want the best solution, and the best solution means efficient and what allows you to produce the desired sound without hindrance. I am not arguing I am being precise.
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Offline klavieronin

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #41 on: February 12, 2022, 12:02:24 PM
Point taken but I think it's not unreasonable to suggest that your original post may not have been as precise as you might think, given my apparent misinterpretation of it.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #42 on: February 12, 2022, 12:18:13 PM
If you want to focus on semantics and the op was the only mention of what "efficient" means  I guess so, but let's not tangent this thread. I already elaborated what efficient means due to your statement asking us to offer fingering that has nothing to do with efficiency (which went against the very nature of this thread) so there should be zero confusion from then on so let's move on already.

If you have a strong belief that there is a clear distinction then I await with interest your juxtapositioning of efficiency vs efficacy in isolation to one another using exact fingerings and musical context, though it will be quite a difficult task. 
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Offline klavieronin

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #43 on: February 12, 2022, 01:32:05 PM
If you have a strong belief that there is a clear distinction then I await with interest your juxtapositioning of efficiency vs efficacy in isolation to one another using exact fingerings and musical context, though it will be quite a difficult task.

Yes, exactly! That is precisely the point I want to make with these examples.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #44 on: February 12, 2022, 02:13:16 PM
Yes, exactly! That is precisely the point I want to make with these examples.
I think its rather unfeasible since efficiency and efficacy go hand in hand as I have already described, they are not mutually exclusive from one another and segregating them will create an very odd situation, but let's see.
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Offline brogers70

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #45 on: February 12, 2022, 07:23:52 PM
I was trying to make a distinction between efficacy and efficiency but perhaps I should have used the term "economical" instead - or at least put "efficient" in quote marks. I thought my meaning was clear but I guess not. I think this is why conversations on the internet so often go so horribly wrong.

I think your meaning was clear. If you write in such a way as to forestall every foreseeable, pickable nit, you end up being verbose and fussy. If you said "His technique was great but I didn't find his playing very musical," reasonable people would know what you meant, even if somebody might define great technique as technique that allows you to play musically.

Offline ranjit

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #46 on: February 12, 2022, 08:01:26 PM
I think your meaning was clear. If you write in such a way as to forestall every foreseeable, pickable nit, you end up being verbose and fussy. If you said "His technique was great but I didn't find his playing very musical," reasonable people would know what you meant, even if somebody might define great technique as technique that allows you to play musically.
For some reason, I specifically see good pianists nitpick on technique vs musicality, but at some level it starts making sense that they think that way, because once certain fundamentals are established, technical practice takes the form of problem solving to be able to execute a specific musical idea. The distinction is much more obvious for a beginner where the gap between what they can imagine and what they can execute is much larger.

Granted, the lack of musicality in one's playing can also stem from a lack of imagination, but I just find it far more common among good pianists to sort o take a certain level of musicality for granted. Also I specifically find pianists doing this, not so much other instrumentalists usually.

I find Sophie in this video to really exemplify how a lot of advanced pianists talk. I used to find it super confusing as a beginner. But this is how I find most good pianists talk, at least behind the curtain. This kind of constant switching between technique and musicality is very typical. Sometimes people will artificially draw a line in the sand just for the sake of discussion, but in a place like this, I think there is space for nitpicking, even arguing semantics.


I was very often confused by these kinds of distinctions as a beginner which people take as self-evident, such as "learning" vs "memorizing" a piece which I still can't properly wrap my head around.   

Offline klavieronin

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #47 on: February 12, 2022, 08:10:17 PM
I think your meaning was clear. If you write in such a way as to forestall every foreseeable, pickable nit, you end up being verbose and fussy. If you said "His technique was great but I didn't find his playing very musical," reasonable people would know what you meant, even if somebody might define great technique as technique that allows you to play musically.

Thanks brogers70.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #48 on: February 12, 2022, 11:27:04 PM
As the OP I merely will moderate this thread with a rebuttal that musicality vs technique is not the topic of discussion here.

It is of course fine to discuss issues other than the main topic of a thread but would be nice to keep the thread more on target. Discussing musicality in depth with words is tougher than you think, you really will not be able to teach someone effectively to be musical with simply words, but discussing just the fingerings is more scientific since we have exact patterns to analyze and can express logic through that and this is the point of the thread.

The thread isn't about if you can play musically or not. It is about can you determine the most efficient fingerings which will allow you to play the passage with the least amount of effort and logically this situation will allow you more room to express yourself. Poor fingerings can stunt musicality since you are dealing with less efficient movements.

Technique vs musicality however in this case of fingering really does not matter. Optimal efficient fingering DOES NOT neglect musicality. You can play with optimal fingerings and sound unmusical so too you can play with poor fingering and sound unmusical. You can play with optimal fingerings and sound very musical as well you can play with poor fingerings and sound very musical. Of course if you play with very poor fingerings it can make playing musically very tough but it is possible.

If we deal with just the fingerings that is fine enough. Trying to prove that musicality suffers from OPTIMAL fingering is an extremely difficult task because generally you will require someone to actually play with poor musicality in the first place and no amount of fingering will help them, this of course is NOT the point of this thread. To me it is an utter contradiction to say good fingering technique produces poor musicality, it is not the fingering that is to blame but the pianists musicality itself, you pretty much set yourself up for a headache trying to prove that optimal fingerings produces poor musicality.

It is very easy to talk in generalisations, we have actual pieces and fingerings to solve. Let's be specific and not pretend to be clever with generalisations.
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Offline klavieronin

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Re: Fingering Challenge!!!!
Reply #49 on: February 13, 2022, 01:48:53 AM
To me it is an utter contradictory to say good fingering technique produces poor musicality…

I feel like you are twisting my words here. I never said "good" or "efficient" or "optimal" fingering produces poor musicality. What I said was, "some pianists may decide to compromise a little bit on [economy] in order to serve the music better."

If those two sentences mean the same thing to you then I don't think we are speaking the same language.

In any case, like you said, we need to get the topic back on track. I doubt anyone else will submit their solutions so do you want to post yours before I make my case?
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