Reasonable expectations for the old guy

[johnvw]

Hi to All,
I am 72, currently learning clarinet, 18 months, note reading ( treble clef ) above average.
Lots of thought about learning the piano. Currently doing a lot of research and becoming familiar with piano beginner books before purchasing.
I plan to have a teacher in the early stages for reasons of general hand/ finger care and technical correctness.
From your teachers experience what would an old guy expect to accomplish in the first five years of practise.
I appear to be quite regimented, practice Clarinet for an hour each day, I would expect this to continue with the piano for atleast the next twelve months, quite possibly more.
I prefer Classical style music, although the Clarinet has awakened new boundaries.

At 72 my only concern is biting off more than one could expect to chew.

Best Regards
John

[ranjit]

This will sound cliche, but it depends too much on the individual to say anything for sure. That said, there are a few things which I find make a considerable difference in eventual outcome.

Do you have prior musical experience? Have you played an instrument? Can you sing? Can you pick out notes? Have you been to a lot of classical/jazz concerts? Do you intuitively know the musical vocabulary?

Are you generally intelligent? Have you maintained that intelligence throughout life? In particular, have you been in a knowledge-based profession such as a professor, programmer, engineer, or doctor, where you may have had to keep learning all of your life? Do you have other serious mental hobbies? Do you know multiple languages? Can you perceive differences in sound well? Identifying or imitating accents, identifying specific recordings, hearing individual instruments in busy tracks etc.

How physically fit and coordinated are you? Can you play sports? Are you athletic? Do you juggle or learn card tricks? I've seen some cases online where people were into competitive gaming as well which gave them an advantage to boot.

In five years, I would expect you to play somewhere between grade 3-6 ABRSM if you stick with it.

[perfect_pitch]

Ranjit has brought up some great questions, and you don't need to answer them or let us know the answers. I kind of wonder what 'card tricks' or 'languages' have to do with piano playing however, but most of his other questions have some degree of merit.

I've never done card tricks, I can't juggle or speak another language but I can play the piano very well, since my mind likes puzzles. Working out the letter name vertically on the music as you make sense of the rhythm horizontally.

A few others to think about - do you have a good instrument to practice on? Piano can also be about stretch on the keys, so do your fingers feel nimble at your age.

My main piece of advice would be to think of music like a language. Soak up all the detail on the piece and analyse everything on the page. Don't try and use shortcuts to work out notes - understand the relation of the notes on the page with the keys on the piano. A teacher can also give you exercises to speed up your progress. While I know beginner students can play a melody in one hand and chords in the other, it's the exercises I give them that help them play without pauses quicker and gain better fluency.

Hope that's also helpful to what Ranjit has given you so far.

[keypeg]

So far there have been no answers from teachers, and I don't know if any "old" people have answered (I know one is young, but I don't know the age of the other.   So here is an answer from someone in both camps.  I'm not young (celebrated my 68th birthday yesterday), am still a learner, also a trained teacher, and have had a foot in the door in piano / music teaching via music teachers.

You are absolutely on the right track, wanting to start with a teacher to get the physical part of the piano.  Re: "hands" - also remember that your hands are attached to your arms, which attach to your body.  You're at an instrument that is bigger than you, where you're the one moving around on it.    When getting a teacher, it might be good to state at the onset that you are there to get the skills and knowledge you need to be able to play the piano. Experience shows that we cannot assume this; it is often assumed that adults want quick results for playing their favourite music, want shortcuts and such - you don't want to end up being given "olden goldies" to play because that's what you must want.

The fact that you play / are learning clarinet gives a couple of things. Obviously you're familiar with music at some level, understand notation to some degree in the treble clef, things like time signatures, key signatures, counting, maybe phrasing.  All this will help you.   I play several instruments: recorder (descant, alto, tenor), studied violin a few years, and sing, and ofc piano or I'd not be here.  Wind instruments are different than piano. So you have to enter the mindset and body of a pianist.  Some differences:
- on clarinet, your hands stay in one place.  On piano, any finger can play any note, and your hands move all over the place. (Be careful about books that have "C position" or any "position", esp. if they train your hands that "the thumb is on middle C, esp. for a long time).
- For a wind instrument, a note sounds for as long as you blow.  On violin, the note sounds as long as you keep moving the bow.    The piano is essentially a percussion instrument where the blow of the hammer which is thrown at the string causes the string to start ringing and immediately decay.  You'll be tempted to "hold down the note, keep pressing" for a sustained sound.  Besides the fact that the pedal can take over, this will create tension in the hand.  In other words, the piano is not a clarinet, but you'll be tempted to relate to it as though it were. 
- The bigger point is that your teacher may think you know more than you do, without being fully aware of these differences.  I've run into several fellow students who got caught out by this, when they played another unrelated instrument.

You will have a good feel for the melodic side of music, since you play clarinet.  You may hear the "singing" part of the music.  How to physically make it sing, that's the technique part.   Chords and harmony will not be much developed, and this is a large part of piano playing. 

I'd probably stay away from any book written for "adults" because often these are shortcut books, designed with the idea that adults want to go fast, and less in depth.

[ranjit]

Ranjit has brought up some great questions, and you don't need to answer them or let us know the answers. I kind of wonder what 'card tricks' or 'languages' have to do with piano playing however, but most of his other questions have some degree of merit.

There was a professional card trick player who I believe posted on this forum, who had made surprisingly good progress after about six months (playing something like a Clementi sonata or something which was fairly fast, I'd say at about a grade 6 level). It turns out that he had learned to observe and imitate sleight of hand very well in the past, and this gave him an acute sense of how to manipulate his hands. He could then observe how the hands of pianists worked from video, and imitate that unusually well.

I have seen that people who are good with languages tend to pick up on playing the piano quicker. I don't know exactly how this works, but almost all of the pianists I have met have had good language skills. Even those who immigrated (to the US) very often have very good speaking and English language skills. Several of them could pronounce German, Italian, French names etc. very well without speaking the language, and imitate accents as well. Many of them, both native speakers and those who learned English later in life, had near-flawless grammar. Even the people on this forum write very well on average. Now, I'm not saying that people who aren't musicians can not do these things, by any measure, but at least from my observation I see a correlation.

I've never done card tricks, I can't juggle or speak another language but I can play the piano very well, since my mind likes puzzles. Working out the letter name vertically on the music as you make sense of the rhythm horizontally.

I also find that people adept at mathematics tend to be able to intuitively pick up on structure in music much better than the average person. They tend to be able to visualize and rotate around the notes of the music better and observe patterns and pick up on theory a bit better, often even without formal instruction. I would bet on being able to teach most of my mathematics friends the basics of music theory such as chord functions in a short period of time.

My main piece of advice would be to think of music like a language. Soak up all the detail on the piece and analyse everything on the page.

To further the language analogy, listen to music as frequently and as intently as possible! I would try to remember the sound of a piece of music in my head, to memorize the sound completely, and it went very far in my musical development. Since I had already heard enough music and intuitively picked up on common patterns, learning music theory became much easier because I instinctively understood much of it.

[keypeg]

My concern about the original list of questions is that someone thinking of starting to learn to play an instrument, that if they said no to all or most of that list, might then think that they would fail, and therefore not go the route.  If you want to learn to play the piano, go and try to learn to play the piano, and find your path to it.  Btw, I suck at card games, and am not that great at math.  Probably because of how math was taught when I was young.  I'm not that bad at music, though. 

[ranjit]

My concern about the original list of questions is that someone thinking of starting to learn to play an instrument, that if they said no to all or most of that list, might then think that they would fail, and therefore not go the route. 

That makes sense. However, the questioner specifically asked what he would be expected to accomplish in the first five years of practice. Also, from the last post, he seems to be looking for specific answers and is getting frustrated asking the same questions. So, I've simply given the answer that I think is most correct, and I'll let him take it from there. "It takes as long as it takes" is not a satisfactory answer for many. I agree that the points I made don't necessarily go in the other direction. But with no other prior information, a general answer is the best anyone can give. If they wanted something more specific, it's the questioner's fault for not wording the question better.

[lostinidlewonder]

I don't like the idea of studying multiple instruments at a beginners level how can you possibly have enough time for appropriate practice? Spreading yourself thinly I feel.

Also I don't like the idea of predetermined future progress. You either aim too high or too low so what's the point? Focus on your work and see where you go. Watching every step of the way waiting to achieve some kind of desired level is like watching water come to a boil or bread being toasted.

[johnvw]

Hi to All,
Thank you for the replies.
An awkward question I know, the responses were enlightening.
At 72 the main objective is self satisfaction. The extent of activities available to ( me ) now are endless. No school, college or work commitments, just becoming involved in activities that I had never thought of or had the funds or opportunity to pursue.
The reason for the question directed at the more senior and music teachers was designed to give me an impression that engaging in  this new venture would not be ‘ that after about four or five years of steady practice, we would expect you to be very competent with some major Scales and possibly halfway through book Two for beginners.
After being made known of this projected outcome, my desire to learn the piano would have changed significantly.
The mature aged members will face substantial challengers, even without the thought of acquiring or attempting to learn new skills. Encouragement ought be in the mind of those already possessing  the appropriate skills, else we oldies may just sit back, not engage and wonder ‘ what if ‘.

Best regards
John
 

[ranjit]

The reason for the question directed at the more senior and music teachers was designed to give me an impression that engaging in  this new venture would not be ‘ that after about four or five years of steady practice, we would expect you to be very competent with some major Scales and possibly halfway through book Two for beginners.
After being made known of this projected outcome, my desire to learn the piano would have changed significantly.

I think it's definitely possible to get further than that if you work hard at it. Unless you have severe memory problems or such. I think it should definitely be possible to reach at least a grade 3 level in 5 years if you consistently spend an hour or two at the piano a day, even if you have very little talent for it. Life is short and your personal limits will depend on your individual potential, not the agglomerate. If there is something you really like, just go for it and see how far you can get (without doing something crazy or injuring yourself of course).

Encouragement ought be in the mind of those already possessing  the appropriate skills, else we oldies may just sit back, not engage and wonder ‘ what if ‘.

The problem with encouragement is that it often crosses the line into essentially lying. The problem is that it makes it very hard to get a genuine idea of what people think. It may be bad to make someone feel bad that they may not accomplish something, but it would be worse to tell them they can only for them to spend 3 years led on by encouragement only to realize that they had far overestimated what was realistic.

I don't believe it's true at all that adults can not learn well. Many have just forgotten how. However, the kind of rapid learning of advanced skills that is possible as a child is probably not likely anymore.

[lostinidlewonder]

An experienced teacher is not a psychic. We can only tell you what your potential may be if we understand how you think and work and how you progress. We would have to give you specific tasks and then measure your ability based on the amount of work you did and how much you progressed and how well you mastered it. There is absolutely no generalised answer that is intelligent in this respect. It is akin to asking a doctor how long you might live without them knowing your current health, habits, test results etc etc.

I also feel Johnvw is just taking past all the advice given so far.