How to Approach Learning Bach

[bwl_13]

I have a really tough time learning Bach. I've been always practicing at least one Bach piece for the past 3 years, but it just feels so much less intuitive than any other composer. I love Bach and conquering his pieces is very satisfying, but I have to wonder if I'm approaching his music ineffectively.

Currently I learn a few measures at per practice session based on what's natural for the harmonic structure of the piece. I learn it hands separately, writing out a thorough fingering for each, and then getting them to feel very comfortable. Once they do I put them together at a very slow tempo, and this is when it falls apart. It is so challenging to keep up with 3-4 voices and also keep the fingering consistent, not lift tied notes and pay attention to articulation.

What are some other ways that might ease the challenge of learning these dense polyphonic textures? Am I alone or is this something lots of people struggle with?

[brogers70]

It's not easy, for sure. Here's what I do to learn a fugue. First I write it out by hand in open score - one voice per staff. Just doing that alone helps me identify fugal entrances, motifs, various fugal devices like inversion, augmentation and diminution. Then I listen to a recording of the fugue over and over, each time following a different individual line, to make sure I can hear it in the texture, and to make sure I can hear all the inversions, stretti, augmentations, etc. Then I do the same thing except that each time I sing one of the voices (in an octave I can manage). Then I go back and work out the fingering for each hand separately. At that point, real Bach fanatics might play each individual voice using the fingers they will use when playing the whole thing - I haven't done that diligently, but it may help. Instead I work, from then on, pretty much as you do, hands separate, then together, a few measures at a time. The thing is, all the preliminary work on the individual voices helps me hear what's going on and helps me treat each line separately, even when there are a couple of lines in the same hand. It still takes me a long time to get comfortable with a fugue, but at least it's an enjoyable process.

[anacrusis]

I've always found Bach to be about the same difficulty to learn as any other composer. And I learn Bach in the same way. I look in the score which keys I need to press and in what order, and then I press those keys. I keep repeating that until I remember which keys to press without looking in the score. Sometimes it seems to me like people struggle with Bach because they tell themselves that it will be hard because there are multiple voices. But really, you just need to learn which hand shapes to make and which fingers to wiggle at what location on the piano. The same as any other piece. It's not more difficult than learning Beethoven.  Good luck 

[bwl_13]

It's not easy, for sure. Here's what I do to learn a fugue. First I write it out by hand in open score - one voice per staff. Just doing that alone helps me identify fugal entrances, motifs, various fugal devices like inversion, augmentation and diminution. Then I listen to a recording of the fugue over and over, each time following a different individual line, to make sure I can hear it in the texture, and to make sure I can hear all the inversions, stretti, augmentations, etc. Then I do the same thing except that each time I sing one of the voices (in an octave I can manage). Then I go back and work out the fingering for each hand separately. At that point, real Bach fanatics might play each individual voice using the fingers they will use when playing the whole thing - I haven't done that diligently, but it may help. Instead I work, from then on, pretty much as you do, hands separate, then together, a few measures at a time. The thing is, all the preliminary work on the individual voices helps me hear what's going on and helps me treat each line separately, even when there are a couple of lines in the same hand. It still takes me a long time to get comfortable with a fugue, but at least it's an enjoyable process.

Thanks a lot, this is a very intricate approach that seems to make the music more manageable. I find it useful to pick out the voices for sure.

[bwl_13]

I've always found Bach to be about the same difficulty to learn as any other composer. And I learn Bach in the same way. I look in the score which keys I need to press and in what order, and then I press those keys. I keep repeating that until I remember which keys to press without looking in the score. Sometimes it seems to me like people struggle with Bach because they tell themselves that it will be hard because there are multiple voices. But really, you just need to learn which hand shapes to make and which fingers to wiggle at what location on the piano. The same as any other piece. It's not more difficult than learning Beethoven.  Good luck 

I'm curious whether it is mental or not. I have to think not, because so many times I've made good progress with other composers and convinced myself that my Bach piece will be more manageable this time, but every time I'm woken up with very awkward hand positions and mind bending passages.

This predates me even knowing consciously what polyphony is, since I distinctly remember struggling with learning some of Bach's inventions far more than other sonatinas and pieces I was learning.

Funny you bring up Beethoven, since I've always found Bach so much more challenging than Beethoven in particular. Thanks for your thoughts though, the music is still a joy.

[anacrusis]

I'm curious whether it is mental or not. I have to think not, because so many times I've made good progress with other composers and convinced myself that my Bach piece will be more manageable this time, but every time I'm woken up with very awkward hand positions and mind bending passages.

This predates me even knowing consciously what polyphony is, since I distinctly remember struggling with learning some of Bach's inventions far more than other sonatinas and pieces I was learning.

Funny you bring up Beethoven, since I've always found Bach so much more challenging than Beethoven in particular. Thanks for your thoughts though, the music is still a joy.

To be honest, I was slightly facetious  Of course Bach can be tricky to sort out. It gets better the more you play Bach/polyphony, so you'll be rewarded for your efforts for sure. That's also why it's so useful to play Bach, you develop your independency of thought and finger

[brogers70]

Thanks a lot, this is a very intricate approach that seems to make the music more manageable. I find it useful to pick out the voices for sure.

I know it seems like this is a lot of work. The first time I tried it I thought I was wasting my time. But putting in a week up front in which you don't even try to play it at the piano, just copy it out in full score and sing the individual voices saves more than a week on the time it takes to learn it at the piano. At least that's how it was for me.

[leonieschmidt]

I would go about it a little differently. Ditch the old music notation and use a new kind:



(That's one of the inventions.) It lets you transpose anything on sight, no matter what instrument you play. A little, well, steep at first, but it gives you instant access to the song's 'guts' (so-to-speak), and automatically takes care of music analysis. Makes drawing parallels from one Bach song to the next and really understanding his language so much easier.

[bwl_13]

I would go about it a little differently. Ditch the old music notation and use a new kind:



(That's one of the inventions.) It lets you transpose anything on sight, no matter what instrument you play. A little, well, steep at first, but it gives you instant access to the song's 'guts' (so-to-speak), and automatically takes care of music analysis. Makes drawing parallels from one Bach song to the next and really understanding his language so much easier.

I actually can't see what image you posted. It shows up blank for me.

[j_tour]

It shows up blank for me.

Yep.  Shooting blanks for me too.

Is that zed for zero?

Anyway, back to the topic, and without any "ancient secret that will amaze you," I just write, rewrite, analyze, and repeat.

And believe it or not, listen intently even during my off hours.  While sleeping, for example.  It's difficult to understand or explain, especially when there's constant noise about one, but an analogy might be had in regards to pool players and various "systems" of aiming.  Nobody uses those, not even the people who wrote the books. 

Hit a million balls, is the word.

But, as a bit of practical advice, I like to use different softnesses of 2mm graphite in various lead holders for annotating scores.  Just keeps me organized and it helps for different surfaces on which one may write.

[bwl_13]

Yep.  Shooting blanks for me too.

Is that zed for zero?

Anyway, back to the topic, and without any "ancient secret that will amaze you," I just write, rewrite, analyze, and repeat.

And believe it or not, listen intently even during my off hours.  While sleeping, for example.  It's difficult to understand or explain, especially when there's constant noise about one, but an analogy might be had in regards to pool players and various "systems" of aiming.  Nobody uses those, not even the people who wrote the books. 

Hit a million balls, is the word.

But, as a bit of practical advice, I like to use different softnesses of 2mm graphite in various lead holders for annotating scores.  Just keeps me organized and it helps for different surfaces on which one may write.

Thanks for that bit about the graphite especially, I think that'll be something I'll look into. Using the standard HB pencil can make it look pretty messy so I'll look into something more sophisticated.

I'm currently learning the C Major fugue from Book II, I've been going through individual voices and noting entries of the subject and countersubject. I haven't yet had any formal training on analyzing a fugue so any tips for what to look out for would be appreciated. I find it especially difficult to find altered forms of the subject, such as in retrograde or inversion. I haven't been able to find any retrograde or inversion in the first fugue of Book II, but I might be missing something.

[anacrusis]

Thanks for that bit about the graphite especially, I think that'll be something I'll look into. Using the standard HB pencil can make it look pretty messy so I'll look into something more sophisticated.

I'm currently learning the C Major fugue from Book II, I've been going through individual voices and noting entries of the subject and countersubject. I haven't yet had any formal training on analyzing a fugue so any tips for what to look out for would be appreciated. I find it especially difficult to find altered forms of the subject, such as in retrograde or inversion. I haven't been able to find any retrograde or inversion in the first fugue of Book II, but I might be missing something.

Not every fugue uses every kind of technique. If you look at the c minor fugue in book I for example,  all it does is making couple of statements of its subject in its original or answer forms and then the piece ends. The D sharp minor fugue of book I, on the other hand, alters the subject in over four distinct ways.

[j_tour]

Thanks for that bit about the graphite especially

Well, it's just one of those things.  Not very important to the specific topic, but those are the tools of this trade.  Pencil and paper, pretty much.

I'm currently learning the C Major fugue from Book II, I've been going through individual voices and noting entries of the subject and countersubject. I haven't yet had any formal training on analyzing a fugue.

The above poster said more than I can.  It's a good one, though.  I'm slightly resisting the urge to read off the Henle WTCII, but "they" sent that one into space with Voyager.  GG's recording, if I'm not mistaken.  I do recall it's deceptively "easy":  FWIW, when Bach drops into C major, he's always going to be introducing a bunch of accidentals which makes it not that easy to read at first glance.  The WTCI C major fugue is a good example:  stretto all over the place, and few sharps thrown in, and it's game on as far as sight-reading at a brisk tempo, AFAIC. 

He was a pretty crafty guy, you know. 

That's not a bad exercise, to look at the WTCI and WTCII fugues in C major and in C minor. I can't recall off the top of my head specific points to look at, but there are some stark contrasts and points to be made.  Very intricate comparative study, perhaps, lot of ins and outs and what-have-yous and such. 

But, I thank you for having made the topic:  I've been off the keyboards for a few months (trust me, it's not good:  I picked up just now the Contrapunctus IX from the Ars fuga, and reading it from the Henle, I almost forgot how to play this little piece, fingers like sausages and all that), and it's good for me to play through these today (just the fugues), when I get around to it. 

[ranjit]

Here's something which I found useful -- try to hear the melodic shape of the voices, actually follow the melody lines, where they start and end, and try to figure out why those melodies are natural. Try to see the entire melody in your mind at once, so to speak. Perhaps you can sing them. One thing I was impressed by was that a lot of the melodies were actually quite melodic and singable, or at the very least natural. This often does not come out in recordings. Play with dynamic contrast in the melodies, i.e. play them "romantically". Once you can hear the melodies and once they seem to naturally fall into place, you should have a much easier time memorizing imo. Bach keyboard writing to me almost seems like a transcription of a choir or something, like a Beethoven sonata feels like it's meant to be played by more instruments than just a keyboard. Some of the essence can be lost in the "translation", I feel, and I think it can be useful to try to recreate the music in different ways in order to try to figure that out.

I'm pretty new to this though myself, though.

[stringoverstrung]

I have a really tough time learning Bach. I've been always practicing at least one Bach piece for the past 3 years, but it just feels so much less intuitive than any other composer. I love Bach and conquering his pieces is very satisfying, but I have to wonder if I'm approaching his music ineffectively.

Hello,

For me the mental "barrier"  of Bach is also there : difficult and slower to learn than any other composer. Maybe this is because there is more music per square note so to speak. So I believe it is important not to get demotivated by slow progress. You might as well think: this is just normal as this is very rich music.

Hope it helps,
Gert

[lelle]

Maybe this is because there is more music per square note so to speak.

That's an interesting way of thinking about it! It's certainly true that there can be a lot to keep track of at once with Bach. But I also think that Bach can develop your playing skill a lot for this very reason. It's always worth it to play some Bach!

[lettersquash]

I have a really tough time learning Bach. I've been always practicing at least one Bach piece for the past 3 years, but it just feels so much less intuitive than any other composer. I love Bach and conquering his pieces is very satisfying, but I have to wonder if I'm approaching his music ineffectively.

Currently I learn a few measures at per practice session based on what's natural for the harmonic structure of the piece. I learn it hands separately, writing out a thorough fingering for each, and then getting them to feel very comfortable. Once they do I put them together at a very slow tempo, and this is when it falls apart. It is so challenging to keep up with 3-4 voices and also keep the fingering consistent, not lift tied notes and pay attention to articulation.

What are some other ways that might ease the challenge of learning these dense polyphonic textures? Am I alone or is this something lots of people struggle with?

Hi, I'm more of a fellow traveller than someone qualified to answer the question, but what occurs to me is that you've been playing "at least one Bach piece for the past 3 years" and are struggling over 3-4 voices. I wonder if you're pushing the complexity too fast, at the cost of the number of successes under your belt. What about learning more, relatively simple, Bach pieces first before trying the harder ones?

I know I couldn't face four parts, and I'm only tentatively eyeing up three in slow pieces or where there are just a few additional fingers to worry about here and there. I've managed the Aria from the Goldberg Variations (taking about a year!) and have now almost got to grips with Variation 13 in under a week, because it's relatively slow - the right hand is doing a lot of melody notes while the left plods mostly. On the other hand, I'm getting frustrated with Variation 1, probably because I feel I should have got closer to the 'target tempo' by now, and I just need to slow right down again.

There seems to be a lot to choose from in all the suites - "lute" or "cello", for example, that would exercise the separating of polyphony with fewer notes before attempting four-part fugues.

@leonieschmidt - I'd love to see that pic, presumably alternative notation!
Edited to add - actually, don't bother, I've seen the other thread about it.

@anacrusis - your first comment is a joy to read!

[bwl_13]

Hi, I'm more of a fellow traveller than someone qualified to answer the question, but what occurs to me is that you've been playing "at least one Bach piece for the past 3 years" and are struggling over 3-4 voices. I wonder if you're pushing the complexity too fast, at the cost of the number of successes under your belt. What about learning more, relatively simple, Bach pieces first before trying the harder ones?

I know I couldn't face four parts, and I'm only tentatively eyeing up three in slow pieces or where there are just a few additional fingers to worry about here and there. I've managed the Aria from the Goldberg Variations (taking about a year!) and have now almost got to grips with Variation 13 in under a week, because it's relatively slow - the right hand is doing a lot of melody notes while the left plods mostly. On the other hand, I'm getting frustrated with Variation 1, probably because I feel I should have got closer to the 'target tempo' by now, and I just need to slow right down again.

There seems to be a lot to choose from in all the suites - "lute" or "cello", for example, that would exercise the separating of polyphony with fewer notes before attempting four-part fugues.

@leonieschmidt - I'd love to see that pic, presumably alternative notation!
Edited to add - actually, don't bother, I've seen the other thread about it.

@anacrusis - your first comment is a joy to read!

I've worked through easier pieces. I've played 7 or 8 two part inventions and a few sinfonias too in addition to some of the polyphonic textures in some Beethoven sonatas and Rachmaninoff preludes, but that's an entirely different style of polyphony.

I don't study pieces that are not largescale for anything more than 3-4 months straight, otherwise it's too difficult. It's hard to word what I meant, but I take my time with Bach. I just meant that I've always got a Bach piece in my fingers. I would actually suggest that the Aria of the Goldbergs is something that really should not be taking nearly a year to work out, but I might have misunderstood or am underestimating the difficulty of the Aria since I don't play that piece.

I don't really consider tempo to indicate difficulty with counterpoint. The complexity of the texture or the hand positioning is often more important than the tempo, so I wouldn't worry about playing only slower 3 part textures. My first sinfonia was a relatively quick one (D Major) and I successfully auditioned as well as performed with it. I'm sure I can handle it technically I just need a lot more patience to practice it.

[lettersquash]

I've worked through easier pieces. I've played 7 or 8 two part inventions and a few sinfonias too in addition to some of the polyphonic textures in some Beethoven sonatas and Rachmaninoff preludes, but that's an entirely different style of polyphony.

Ah, OK, it just sounded like you'd jumped in to doing 4-parts without much earlier experience, but I see that's not the case. Do take my thoughts with a pinch of salt, as you've learned more stuff than I have!

I don't study pieces that are not largescale for anything more than 3-4 months straight, otherwise it's too difficult. It's hard to word what I meant, but I take my time with Bach. I just meant that I've always got a Bach piece in my fingers. I would actually suggest that the Aria of the Goldbergs is something that really should not be taking nearly a year to work out, but I might have misunderstood or am underestimating the difficulty of the Aria since I don't play that piece.

Yeah, that's misleading, I realised after I posted it. I probably got the Aria down in a month (I can't really remember now) except for the mistakes or inconsistencies - it's that question, how long is a piece of string. I've been trying to play it through with both sections repeated without mistakes and recording it for a year! I think the difficulty with the Aria - for me, at least - is bringing out the phrasing and applying the most musical rubato, choosing the style of ornaments (it has so many!), that kind of thing. I listened to such varied interpretations it was hard to figure out if there was a "correct" one and then (having given up on that) form my own. The beauty and meaning of it seem so wrapped up in those subtle timings that I found I couldn't practise it too much or I'd lose the emotion of it, so that contributed to the slow progress.

I don't really consider tempo to indicate difficulty with counterpoint. The complexity of the texture or the hand positioning is often more important than the tempo, so I wouldn't worry about playing only slower 3 part textures.

Tempo doesn't indicate difficulty alone, no, but surely contributes to it. If you have tricky hand positions and motions it's not such a problem if you've got time to do them.

My first sinfonia was a relatively quick one (D Major) and I successfully auditioned as well as performed with it. I'm sure I can handle it technically I just need a lot more patience to practice it.

I see. It looks like it would be a stretch for me, but just a matter of practice, and the steady rhythm makes it easier to approach like anacrusis said (slightly facetiously) "learn which hand shapes to make and which fingers to wiggle at what location on the piano." When I get frustrated with slow progress, it's usually fixed by repeating very slowly the passage where I go wrong (usually fingering goes awry), making myself refuse to speed up, because I'll just revert to the same mistake again if I do. The next day, usually, it's like it's sunk in to my unconscious and I can push the tempo a bit more.

[anacrusis]

@anacrusis - your first comment is a joy to read!

How come? 

[lettersquash]

How come? 

I think it was mostly this part:

I've always found Bach to be about the same difficulty to learn as any other composer. And I learn Bach in the same way. I look in the score which keys I need to press and in what order, and then I press those keys. I keep repeating that until I remember which keys to press without looking in the score. Sometimes it seems to me like people struggle with Bach because they tell themselves that it will be hard because there are multiple voices. But really, you just need to learn which hand shapes to make and which fingers to wiggle at what location on the piano. The same as any other piece. It's not more difficult than learning Beethoven.  Good luck 

It's too long for an inspirational poster, so I might just frame this: "HOW TO PLAY PIANO: Learn Which Fingers To Wiggle At What Location"

Every time I get dispirited, I'll look at that.

[bwl_13]

When I get frustrated with slow progress, it's usually fixed by repeating very slowly the passage where I go wrong (usually fingering goes awry), making myself refuse to speed up, because I'll just revert to the same mistake again if I do. The next day, usually, it's like it's sunk in to my unconscious and I can push the tempo a bit more.

Haha that's exactly the point. I need to be more patient with Bach (fugues especially) because this process tends to be the only way I can really ingrain it. With other composers I can usually push the tempo a bit or at least play semi accurately, but with Bach that's not really an option. Slow practice is the only way...

Regardless, it's still great music and when it's polished it feels like you're juggling effortlessly, so the effort pays off. I just have a hard time practicing Bach pieces for more than 30 minutes, whereas something by Chopin or Beethoven I can easily spend an hour or two of straight focused practice. It's a weird sensation

[f flat minor]

I'm no expert on this but starting with mastering the ornaments is essential.

[lettersquash]

I think it's worth mentioning a couple of other things.

The first is that we're all very different in the way we think about music, due to our different range of abilities. So, when it comes to advice on something like this - playing Bach or playing the piano/other instrument generally - we share what we've found works for us. And therefore, when we're reading these bits of advice, we should remember they might be anything from a massive help to useless or even counter-productive.

I was thinking of this in relation to the first contrasting approaches - one, linear, analytical, taking apart a piece, writing its voices out separately, playing and singing them separately, etc., the other, anacrusis' somewhat "facetious" method - "I look in the score which keys I need to press and in what order, and then I press those keys...", which has been the crux of my approach recently.

Some people are more visual, others more aural, some prefer to understand the theoretical structure of the music, other's don't care about analysing the harmonic progressions.

The other issue is that learning a piece (or an instrument, or music generally) involves practising skills that interrelate in complex ways. For example, playing hands separate helps work out fingering, but the rule "always work out fingering with individual hands first" isn't good enough, because you'll sometimes find the choice has to change (or there are just better ones) when you play hands together. Presumably, the advice to play a fugue with individual parts using the fingers you'll use when you put the piece together presupposes you've worked out which fingers you'll need for each part in relation to the whole, so how do you do that without playing the voices together? It's also perfectly reasonable to switch the hand that plays notes, either purely on preference or because of hand size. In the Goldberg 13 that I'm learning, I realise I can't play it as written, because it was written for two manuals and I can't both sustain a note and repeatedly play and release it! There must be many such examples.

So none of this is like baking a cake, following recipe in steps. It's more like oil painting, where you can block stuff in, or work on details in one part, build up depth, scrape paint off with a palette knife and start again, or leave it for weeks while you do some sketches, study colour theory or perspective, or paint something entirely different. When you put the trees in, the river may look all wrong. And it's not just one finished piece. Five minutes later you can paint it again with a completely different mood.