to be honest I find watching youtube videos on theory concepts to be both fun and educational (Though you always need to be critical about them)Some channels I follow are Musictheoryforguitar, Jazzpianoschool, Rick Beato, Charles Cornell, Adam Neely, Noah Kellman. There are probably many others.
Different people will often have their own systems and their own ways of thinking using their own labels which can make things confusing if you don't understand the concepts and focus on the labels they use.So... while it's good to analyze and build a system try to keep in mind that things are often not black and white and there might be none or more than one correct answer.
So try to understand the concepts and make your own judgements and stay away from internet arguments.Musicians love to argue.
yes, I know I ranted a bit. That happens.
Hi all and thanks for all your efforts - I've already learned some useful things from this forum.Quick version: any entry-level music theory books / websites / apps / etc. that don't try to hide mathematical concepts where they come up, and assume only a bare minimum of musical literacy?Not looking for "the maths of music" - just basic music theory but presented by somebody who "gets" how to explain things to people who know nothing yet about music but enough about maths.Long version:My background: I'm in my mid forties, didn't learn any instrument as a child, and I'm now learning from Faber "Adult Piano Adventures" without a teacher, wanting to play classical music. Slow progress at the moment due to only 2 practice sessons of 40 mins per week - I need to increase that. I started 15 months ago, slipped into just learning / playing only Messiaen's "Regards du Pere" instead of actual practice (I know, that's weird and I've ruined my learning process, you're probably right - but it was and is very motivating!). 5 months ago started on the Fabers' book, I'm only 1/3 through still.I think I would benefit from starting to learn about music theory, but right now I'm doing nothing on that.I'm a hard science/maths sort of person and I think music theory connects with that well, but my very strong impression from my limited past experience is that many (most?) authors/teachers/learning materials don't do well communicating music theory to people like me: no music background but not scared of maths. From my point of view, musicians write in a very quirky foreign language, which obscures, for musical illiterates like me, what are sometimes relatively simple concepts behind a wall of "the curse of knowledge" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_knowledge.To be clear, I'm happy to eventually learn that foreign language over time, I don't expect music theory to be 100% maths about music, and nor do I want to learn about the maths of music for its own sake. But I do think at my level the "language issue" and perhaps a presumption that "obviously nobody wants to see ANY maths" are potentially major hindrances for me in making some rapid initial and motivating progress, given that I've seen from occasional glimpses that some of the musical content is far easier for me to start to grasp with the help of somebody who has some mathematical background and knows how to talk to other people with that sort of background. In fact I have a strong memory of being put off music as a child by exactly this kind of problem (not the only problem, but certainly one).Any advice for somebody like me? Books, general advice/tips, suggestions how to stay motivated, online tools, ... whatever you think is relevant.One note: I'm keen to hear about online things, but to avoid annoyance let me be open up front about one of my peculiarities: I'm also a free (as in freedom) software geek who's keen on decentralisation, and often steer away from many online services (music or otherwise). So I'm actually very keen to hear about such things, but I'm interested much more in what they do, and not so much in simple links to websites or apps that are rather opaque until you sign up - I *might* not sign up, but I think I might well still learn something very useful from hearing about what it is they're doing!Thanks again
I'm a hard science/maths sort of person and I think music theory connects with that well, but my very strong impression from my limited past experience is that many (most?) authors/teachers/learning materials don't do well communicating music theory to people like me: no music background but not scared of maths. From my point of view, musicians write in a very quirky foreign language, which obscures, for musical illiterates like me, what are sometimes relatively simple concepts behind a wall of "the curse of knowledge"
If you insist that these concepts are fundamentally mathematical, I would appreciate you giving me the name of an introductory concept like that.
If you prefer to call perfect fifths "3:2s" then you're be missing the point of the terminology. Music is just not as universal as maths, so explaining that "A simple ratio between the notes means they sound nice together" is a statement assumed to be true in Western tonal music, it's not the case across the globe. The tuning systems and intervals across the world do tend to follow some universals (harmonic series for instance) and I'm also pretty sure fifths are quite universal as intervals, but regardless this stuff isn't really introductory and won't help expand your knowledge of the piano.
Feel free to let me know if I missed something in your post or misunderstood it. I'm still confused as to why this thread focuses on mathematical explanations of theory.
I'm quite the music theory nerd, but I wouldn't necessarily say that there is a lot of math involved. It's just kind of a logical system where things fit neatly together in a very satisfying way once you get it - which can take a while.
kind of a logical system where things fit neatly together in a very satisfying way once you get it
I could try to offer some explanations of the things that were unclear to get you going!
I'm curious if you could write an example or two of this:
There is actually not that much mathematics involved in music, people who say there is usually have a pretty poor and superficial understanding of math. It's unfortunate, because I had hoped there would be more math involved as it would allow me a shortcut to learn the subject (just as math students often breeze through physics courses for example).It's a logical system for the most part, that's all there is to it. Perhaps you need to use some fractions to line up pitches and rhythms, but that's hardly enough to claim that math is present in music, unless you're in elementary school yourself! (As a side note, it might reflect on our education system that it's a common sentiment that music involves quite a bit of math...)I would say it actually involves more ear training. You need to be able to hear the chords and process voice leading and such in your head. It requires a bit of visualization to be able to see the keyboard with shifting chords in your mind's eye.The closest I have seen to math is by our very own Ted, using the Polya theorem to enumerate all possible distinct chords, if I remember correctly. But that in of itself probably won't be useful to most in order to create music.I do think there is some overlap among people who are good at math and those who are good at music/music theory. However in my experience this is mostly due to a preference for logical thinking which speeds up the learning of certain systems and general smarts. I do think mathematics students are better than average at learning and processing music in most cases, but I don't see a direct link from math to music. It's probably somewhat better pattern recognition ability when it comes to musical structures.
There is actually not that much mathematics involved in music, people who say there is usually have a pretty poor and superficial understanding of math. It's unfortunate, because I had hoped there would be more math involved as it would allow me a shortcut to learn the subject (just as math students often breeze through physics courses for example).
It's a logical system for the most part, that's all there is to it. Perhaps you need to use some fractions to line up pitches and rhythms, but that's hardly enough to claim that math is present in music, unless you're in elementary school yourself!
I would say it actually involves more ear training. You need to be able to hear the chords and process voice leading and such in your head. It requires a bit of visualization to be able to see the keyboard with shifting chords in your mind's eye.
The closest I have seen to math is by our very own Ted, using the Polya theorem to enumerate all possible distinct chords, if I remember correctly. But that in of itself probably won't be useful to most in order to create music.
I do think there is some overlap among people who are good at math and those who are good at music/music theory.
Here's an example of what I had in mind when I said I'd had glimpses of understanding as an adult of some things I suspect I was frustrated about as a child because of technical musical language obscuring simple concepts (and you can see "mathematical" is also perhaps too grand a phrase in this case) - scroll down to "Diatonic Chords" "Chords that fit in a particular Key.":https://www.lightnote.co/But I looked at that website before I got my piano and have since forgotten even what little I learned from this!
Thanks, I might take you up on that later! As I say, I've not studied anything like this for years, so naturally I'm not coming at this with a list of specific questions. However, my experience is that often musical people suffer badly from the curse of knowledge when writing notionally introductory explanations - as everybody does - and that on the occasion when I've come across people from other, I've understood them and thought: that's night and day from other experiences I've had where more musical people tried to explain similar concepts to me. I'm sure you'll agree that those experiences over 40 years are not really something that can easily be dumped out onto a web page.
I don't think I can help you with a mathematical language or application for music theory. Like I said music is highly subjective and I don't really see how you can apply mathematics to explain it (and I also like maths).
That being said, if the physics behind the sounds interest you you can try to do some research on the harmonic series. Or acoustics in general. That is a very interesting read.
OP - If you are able to read and understand any standard pre-calculus book - you will have no problem reading and understanding ANY standard beginner level music theory book.
LOL. At this point I think I'm perhaps justified to wonder: It's almost as if you haven't really read my replies carefully. I think it's time to step back from this thread for a bit!
I can vouch for Lelle. He seems willing to help you. Lelle knows theory well and is good at explaining. I wish you the best of luck!
Honestly I'm not a fan of how that website lays everything out, starting from frequencies and frequency ratios and all.When you start out learning music theory, I think you'll profit more from digging into some basic terminology until it gets familiar, which will make it easier to get into more advanced concepts. A lot of these basic terms simply consists of "we decided to give this particular thing this particular name because... we just did".
(There is often some logic to it too, but it's not always immediately obvious and still it's all ultimately based on subjective things we just sort of decided to use as basic building blocks to construct music with).
I would start out with just learning what intervals, scales, and chords are and how they are named.This applies to the "perfect fifth" mentioned earlier. On the piano, there are a bunch of keys. The distance from any key to any other key has a general name - an interval. The interval created by pressing one key, for example a C, and the next key of the same name either above or under it (so another C) is called an octave. Each interval that can be created by pressing two keys within that range from for example C to the next C has a specific name - for example, if you press a C and the G directly above it you get an interval called a "perfect fifth". There are reasons why each interval has the name it has, but in the beginning you are better off just memorizing the names, and getting into the why:s later.
Beginner resources/courses on music theory should have a part covering the names of all the intervals. If you are reading something that's just namedropping the names of intervals, or the word interval without explaining what it is, it's not suitable for beginners.Anytime!
Here we go: I've read terms like "fifth" (not sure whether I mean "perfect fifth" or just fifth - I won't try and google any of this to make my train of thought apparent) being defined as "the interval between N white notes" (probably it was seconds and thirds rather than fifths where I read that). But of course the interval in semitones between N white notes depends on where you start on the keyboard: 7 semitones * 2 ** (1/12) is about a ratio of 1.5 in your example of C to G, but B to F is only six semitones, so 2 ** (1/2), about 1.41. Are intervals (fifths, thirds, seconds etc.) constant intervals in log(frequency), or do they refer to different physical intervals depending on where you start on the keyboard?
This math is not important to your understanding of basic music theory - but I need to correct your math.2^(7/12) = 2 to the 7/12 power is approx 1.498 is the correct ratio of frequencies for an interval of a 5th under equal temperament tuning and is a little less than Pythagoras 1.5 = 3/2 ratio of 2 integers.7 semitones * 2 ** (1/12) - What is this? 7 times 2 to the 1/12 power?? The math is 2 to the 7/12 power - not 7 times 2 to the 1/12 power.
>>> r = 2 ** (1/12.)>>> r ** 122.000000000000001>>> r ** 71.498307076876682>>> r ** 61.4142135623730954
Your question "Are intervals (fifths, thirds, seconds etc.) constant intervals in log(frequency), or do they refer to different physical intervals depending on where you start on the keyboard?"Intervals are determined by the ratio of 2 frequencies.and the tuning method. Equal temperament is the standard tuning method. Under this method, a semitone has 2^(1/12) as the ratio of frequencies.Again this is not important to basic music theory.
I think perhaps you have in mind that the differences between tuning methods aren't important to basic music theory? But what musicians mean by "interval" is important to basic music theory, right? Talking about semitones makes it very concrete and much harder to misunderstand. And to explain what a semitone is just is to describe and understand them in terms of exponents and logarithms and their physical and psycho-acoustic counterparts I think (I'm using "explain" here to mean to describe one thing in terms of something simpler). I find it demotivating to needlessly slog through that sort of confusion about a simple concept that could be explained better in that sense.I'm honestly still confused what an interval is! If you have a "third", is that sometimes three semitones and sometimes four? Or is it always the same numbers of semitones? I think you're saying that it's always the same number of semitones?
Here are the intervals and the number of semitones:Interval = # semotonesMinor 2nd = 1 semitoneMajor 2nd = 2 semotonesMinor 3rd = 3 semitonesMajor 3rd = 4 semotonesperfect 4th = 5 semitonestritone = 6 semitonesperfect 5th = 7 semitonesminor 6th = 8 semitonesmajor 6th = 9 semitonesminor 7th = 10 semitonesmajor 7th = 11 semitonesoctave = 12 semotones
Aha! Now I understand, thanks.I think you also just demonstrated with your explanation exactly why you're wrong about maths being unimportant in music theory
Hi, thanks for replying!Not sure how to make this not sound prickly, but: did you look at the post of mine immediately before yours? I'm talking about the part that starts with "Here's an example"
Again, there's math in music, but it's more in the physics of sound and it's mostly irrelevant to musicians using theory to strengthen their understanding of music.
That's interesting, I think you get to the core of what prompted my original question here.I agree completely about terminology: it's important to learn the same language as everybody else.Where we seem to differ is on learning the concepts to which those terms are attached. Though people vary, I think it's not merely a matter of taste whether it's better to start by "digging into some basic terminology" or learning missing concepts to which terminology can be attached: the latter is better. Once you have a concept you can immediately attach a word to it without much effort. That isn't a claim that learning is ever a simple process of pouring knowledge into people's heads, it isn't and always involves guesswork and backtracking. But there is such a thing as an elementary explanation, and they're very useful for people starting out in an area of knowledge new to them!
I agree with this statement and your spelling of math.However, I can understand an adult that is learning theory at a late age and has strong math background wanting to pursue the math behind it at the start. However, it won't add much to their understanding of music as you say. It may help quench their natural curiosity though.
The Pianostreet spell checker shows that you misspelled math! It's math, not maths!
It probably uses American (US) English. It's like you guys write "labor", we write "labour" and we pay with cheques and not "checks". The spell checker has also flagged my "labour".
It's weird because in Canada we use British/UK spelling for almost everything, but we don't use maths, only math (at least in Ontario)
You can get VERY deep into chords, scales and intervals but it is a mouthful when you're just starting out. Perhaps it would be better to say, start out by learning intervals, scales and chords with some basic explanations of what they are and why they work the way they do. But if you feel more motivated by getting deeper explanations, of course there should be sources out there that can provide
frodo1 gave you an overview of the intervals already. I think it illustrated the point I was trying to make in that you kinda just look at the list which says "this is what it is" and you quickly get the basic gist
But I'll give you a deeper explanation about the naming convention. It's correct that a perfect fifth is always 7 semitones, so B to F is not a perfect fifth, however B to F# is. (B to F is called a diminished fifth, assuming it's notated as a B and F; if it's notated as a B and E# it's an augmented fourth, but all of this is another whole can of worms).Are you familiar with scales?
The only exception to this "rule" is the first second, which is a major second both in the major and minor scale.
In fact, the difference between a major chord and a minor chord, ie C major, which consists of CEG played simultaneously, and A minor, which consists of ACE, is if the third above the starting note is a major third or a minor third. So C major is kinda short for "the scale or chord which starts on C and has a major third", and A minor is kinda short for "the scale or chord which starts on A and has a minor third".
Why intervals called perfect, diminished/augmented, or major/minor is answered better than I can here by Rita Karpati: https://www.quora.com/Music-Theory-Why-do-we-call-a-fifth-perfect-but-other-intervals-%E2%80%9Cmajor%E2%80%9DI hope this was helpful and not confusing, because it became a bit longer than I thought it would
With this ' major scale bias' - If the top note belongs to the major scale, the 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th will be called major. unison, 4th, 5th, octave will be called Perfect. It's that way due to history. It just is.
I understood up to here, then got lost. What do "2nd" "3rd" etc. refer to here, and why is the top note in particular relevant?Sorry I'm sure I'm missing an obvious interpretation, if I read it tomorrow I'll probably understand.