Piano Forum

Piano Forum »
Piano Board »
Student's Corner »
Bach Invention - BWV 772 - About ornaments.

Pages: [1] Go Down

Topic: Bach Invention - BWV 772 - About ornaments. (Read 3101 times)

monsieurpichon

PS Silver Member
Newbie
Posts: 3

Bach Invention - BWV 772 - About ornaments.

on: April 20, 2022, 06:25:58 PM

Hi to all!
I'm getting confused about the ornaments in the first Invention. Can someone guide me?
First of all: I already searched in the forum and found some posts about this invention, but not exactly about my problem.

The problem is the rhythm. At least, this is what is getting me problems. I'm using Busoni's edition:

Look at the first ornament. Every time I'm practicing the piece I tend to coordinate the right hand first ornament note ( b ) with the left hand note ( f ).

But listening a lot of recordings and also some videos, like this one (please go to minute 3:08 exactly):

where the teacher is explaining the piece. But the ornaments happens before the f note in the left hand. Is that correct? If it is so, how is this working? The ornament should start before the f in the left hand? it should be coordinated? after the f?

Thank your very much for your help. =)

Logged

lelle

PS Gold Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 2506

Re: Bach Invention - BWV 772 - About ornaments.

Reply #1 on: April 20, 2022, 08:30:40 PM

I think Busoni has had his own idea about what kind of ornament it's supposed to be, and that he's not correct. The written out ornament does not match what the teacher does nor the type of ornament noted in my Urtext edition. Busoni has notated a mordent, whereas the teacher plays a trill, which starts before the beat and from ABOVE the note with the ornament attached to it. (So in the first example she plays something like c-b-c-b instead of b-a-b.

Logged

j_tour

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 4161

Re: Bach Invention - BWV 772 - About ornaments.

Reply #2 on: April 21, 2022, 12:27:03 AM

Quote from: lelle on April 20, 2022, 08:30:40 PM

I think Busoni has had his own idea about what kind of ornament it's supposed to be, and that he's not correct.

That's right! IMHO. I love the Busoni editions for reference as to how the hands are divided, but one cannot trust the ornamentation. So, I ignore those details.

And, thinking back to this example, I never played it as a mordent: even at fast speed, a trill starting on the upper note.

Logged

My name is Nellie, and I take pride in helping protect the children of my community through active leadership roles in my local church and in the Boy Scouts of America. Bad word make me sad.

monsieurpichon

PS Silver Member
Newbie
Posts: 3

Re: Bach Invention - BWV 772 - About ornaments.

Reply #3 on: April 21, 2022, 02:01:12 AM

Thank you both for your answers. So it's definitely a trill, not a mordent. Reading a little bit of this subject I found the Bach ornamentation table:

The trill (trillo) shows 6 notes. For example "c b c b c b" should be played. But, as in the video of the teacher and most of recordings, I see that most pianist plays "c b c b" and the the c out of the ornament, the last note of the right hand first cleff. Like this:

Is "c b c b" a most modern approach to "c b c b c b" as the ornaments in Bach manuscript?

Thank you again.

Logged

dw4rn

PS Gold Member
Full Member
Posts: 161

Re: Bach Invention - BWV 772 - About ornaments.

Reply #4 on: April 21, 2022, 08:13:41 AM

Hi monsieurpichon,
1. I think what Bach wanted to show in his table is the basic shape of each ornament. Exactly how many notes go into a particular trill depends on the circumstances: how much time you have, the character of the piece etc.
2. I admire your resolve to research what Bach actually meant with his notation. Just remember that ornamentation is not an exact science. There are many correct ways of doing most ornaments (as well as many incorrect ones..) They can almost always be adapted to the taste and skill of the performer. Also, keep in mind that your edition is Busoni's performance suggestion, mirroring his views of correct style. The slurs for example, are not in Bach's original text either.

Logged

monsieur.pichon

PS Silver Member
Newbie
Posts: 6

Re: Bach Invention - BWV 772 - About ornaments.

Reply #5 on: April 21, 2022, 06:42:35 PM

Thank you again for your reply.

So, basically, a trill can be a trill in many ways. The important thing here is that it does not become a mordente or another kind of ornament.
I think I will study the piece with the trill c b c b. Starting before the beat.

Again, thank you very much for all your replies.

Logged

lelle

PS Gold Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 2506

Re: Bach Invention - BWV 772 - About ornaments.

Reply #6 on: April 22, 2022, 10:50:56 AM

Quote from: monsieur.pichon on April 21, 2022, 06:42:35 PM

Thank you again for your reply.

So, basically, a trill can be a trill in many ways. The important thing here is that it does not become a mordente or another kind of ornament.
I think I will study the piece with the trill c b c b. Starting before the beat.

Again, thank you very much for all your replies.

Sounds good! Let us know how it goes

Logged

Sign-up to post reply

Pages: [1] Go Up

For more information about this topic, click search below!

Piano Street Magazine:
New Piano Piece by Chopin Discovered – Free Piano Score

A previously unknown manuscript by Frédéric Chopin has been discovered at New York’s Morgan Library and Museum. The handwritten score is titled “Valse” and consists of 24 bars of music in the key of A minor and is considered a major discovery in the wold of classical piano music. Read more

Piano Forum

Topic: Bach Invention - BWV 772 - About ornaments. (Read 3101 times)

Piano Street Magazine:New Piano Piece by Chopin Discovered – Free Piano Score

Piano Street Magazine:
New Piano Piece by Chopin Discovered – Free Piano Score