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Topic: Bach Invention - BWV 772 - About ornaments.  (Read 1586 times)

Offline monsieurpichon

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Bach Invention - BWV 772 - About ornaments.
on: April 20, 2022, 06:25:58 PM
Hi to all!
I'm getting confused about the ornaments in the first Invention. Can someone guide me?
First of all: I already searched in the forum and found some posts about this invention, but not exactly about my problem.

The problem is the rhythm. At least, this is what is getting me problems. I'm using Busoni's edition:



Look at the first ornament. Every time I'm practicing the piece I tend to coordinate the right hand first ornament note ( b ) with the left hand note ( f ).

But listening a lot of recordings and also some videos, like this one (please go to minute 3:08 exactly):
  where the teacher is explaining the piece. But the ornaments happens before the f note in the left hand. Is that correct? If it is so, how is this working? The ornament should start before the f in the left hand? it should be coordinated? after the f?

Thank your very much for your help. =)
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Offline lelle

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Re: Bach Invention - BWV 772 - About ornaments.
Reply #1 on: April 20, 2022, 08:30:40 PM
I think Busoni has had his own idea about what kind of ornament it's supposed to be, and that he's not correct. The written out ornament does not match what the teacher does nor the type of ornament noted in my Urtext edition. Busoni has notated a mordent, whereas the teacher plays a trill, which starts before the beat and from ABOVE the note with the ornament attached to it. (So in the first example she plays something like c-b-c-b instead of b-a-b.

Offline j_tour

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Re: Bach Invention - BWV 772 - About ornaments.
Reply #2 on: April 21, 2022, 12:27:03 AM
I think Busoni has had his own idea about what kind of ornament it's supposed to be, and that he's not correct.

That's right!  IMHO.  I love the Busoni editions for reference as to how the hands are divided, but one cannot trust the ornamentation.  So, I ignore those details. 

And, thinking back to this example, I never played it as a mordent:  even at fast speed, a trill starting on the upper note.
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Offline monsieurpichon

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Re: Bach Invention - BWV 772 - About ornaments.
Reply #3 on: April 21, 2022, 02:01:12 AM
Thank you both for your answers. So it's definitely a trill, not a mordent. Reading a little bit of this subject I found the Bach ornamentation table:



The trill (trillo) shows 6 notes. For example "c b c b c b" should be played. But, as in the video of the teacher and most of recordings, I see that most pianist plays "c b c b" and the the c out of the ornament, the last note of the right hand first cleff. Like this:



Is "c b c b" a most modern approach to "c b c b c b" as the ornaments in Bach manuscript?

Thank you again.

Offline dw4rn

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Re: Bach Invention - BWV 772 - About ornaments.
Reply #4 on: April 21, 2022, 08:13:41 AM
Hi monsieurpichon,
1. I think what Bach wanted to show in his table is the basic shape of each ornament. Exactly how many notes go into a particular trill depends on the circumstances: how much time you have, the character of the piece etc.
2. I admire your resolve to research what Bach actually meant with his notation. Just remember that ornamentation is not an exact science. There are many correct ways of doing most ornaments (as well as many incorrect ones..) They can almost always be adapted to the taste and skill of the performer. Also, keep in mind that your edition is Busoni's performance suggestion, mirroring his views of correct style. The slurs for example, are not in Bach's original text either.

Offline monsieur.pichon

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Re: Bach Invention - BWV 772 - About ornaments.
Reply #5 on: April 21, 2022, 06:42:35 PM
Thank you again for your reply.

So, basically, a trill can be a trill in many ways. The important thing here is that it does not become a mordente or another kind of ornament.
I think I will study the piece with the trill c b c b. Starting before the beat.

Again, thank you very much for all your replies.

Offline lelle

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Re: Bach Invention - BWV 772 - About ornaments.
Reply #6 on: April 22, 2022, 10:50:56 AM
Thank you again for your reply.

So, basically, a trill can be a trill in many ways. The important thing here is that it does not become a mordente or another kind of ornament.
I think I will study the piece with the trill c b c b. Starting before the beat.

Again, thank you very much for all your replies.

Sounds good! Let us know how it goes :)
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