Narrower sized piano keyboards

[pianowhisper]

Hello,
I came across this relatively recent video and I thought it was quite interesting (and amusing to watch). Maybe it was already shared and talked about over here in the forum; if that is the case, my apologies, please dismiss this post.

What are your thoughts on this reality? I was actually surprised when I realized I had never really thought about pianos being manufactured with a narrower keyboard... My hands reach a 9th comfortably and a 10th with some "healthy" stretch, but I've met and witnessed people who sadly could barely reach an octave. Wouldn't a change in the piano design be a great thing for many out there?

Food for thought...
Best,
pw

[timothy42b]

If you go much narrower you can't fit between the black keys especially at an angle.

The answer is Wicki-Hayden.

[perfect_pitch]

Wouldn't a change in the piano design be a great thing for many out there?

No... because probably about 99.9% of all pianos out there are full size, so 1) those used to full sized pianos would have to re-practice their repertoire on a smaller piano in order to play them again, and all their proprioception on the keys, how big intervals are, chord stretches would be useless.

And 2) Anyone who practiced on a narrower sized keyboard would be useless on a full size if they had to perform. They're so unheard of you wouldn't really get a chance to play on one of them anyway.

[pianowhisper]

1) those used to full sized pianos would have to re-practice their repertoire on a smaller piano in order to play them again, and all their proprioception on the keys, how big intervals are, chord stretches would be useless.

And 2) Anyone who practiced on a narrower sized keyboard would be useless on a full size if they had to perform.

But these statements sound as if they take only playing piano professionally into account.

For 1), I see no reason why people used to full-sized keyboards would be obligated to change the type of instrument they have played all their life. I don't think every piano out there should be changed... just that different models could be introduced in the market.

For 2), not every person practicing in narrower-sized keyboards is a professional player who is going to perform somewhere else... they can be simply music-lovers like me, who want to be able to play what they love at home, to friends and family. Just looking at @11:05 in the video makes me wonder, why is it so wrong to deny people to be that happy about being able to play more and enjoy music in their lives?

[timothy42b]

For 2), not every person practicing in narrower-sized keyboards is a professional player who is going to perform somewhere else... they can be simply music-lovers like me, who want to be able to play what they love at home, to friends and family. Just looking at @11:05 in the video makes me wonder, why is it so wrong to deny people to be that happy about being able to play more and enjoy music in their lives?

Fair point.  The forum has more passionate amateurs than professionals. 

I just don't think the narrow keyboard is necessarily better even for smaller hands.  It just allows for a different set of compromises. 

With narrow keys you can stretch farther, but you have to adjust some angles to fit between black keys.
With wide keys your stretch is limited but your quick touch between keys is easier and has more margin for error. 

[pianowhisper]

With narrow keys you can stretch farther, but you have to adjust some angles to fit between black keys.
With wide keys your stretch is limited but your quick touch between keys is easier and has more margin for error.

Yes, I can see that. I have never played in a narrower keyboard to feel the difference, though. However, I believed that pianos from the past (in the era of Beethoven, Schubert, Chopin...) were quite different with respect to the key size. It just makes me tend to believe that, for the concerned players, the bigger struggle to train yourself to adjust fingers between the keys wouldn't be as big as the struggle to reach common intervals (the former seems to be a matter of practicing, while the latter is a physical aspect).

I just don't think the narrow keyboard is necessarily better even for smaller hands.

I agree, but then again, it makes me think of people (adults) I met who could barely reach an octave or play some simple, although stretchy-ish, 4-note chords. I can imagine someone like that starting to learn the instrument and feeling very discouraged and led to quit because of such. I just wish no one felt that they are physically incapacitated to play the piano for the sole reason of their handspan.

[perfect_pitch]

Okay, I'm getting the sense of deja-vu here. I already won this argument with someone else (I would guess) a decade ago when the subject also made its way here.

I teach a student who can reach an octave okay, but can't play say a solid G minor chord with the upper tonic as well. She doesn't have the stretch between the 2nd and 3rd finger in the RH. In cases like that I get her just to omit a single note if I know it won't drastically alter the sound.

If we bring those narrow sized pianos more and more into the market... people who learn on them will NEVER properly be able to play on the standard size and as I said, I presume they make up 99.9% of them. You would also have to completely readjust your sense of proprioception from going from the narrow to the standard and vice versa.

But these statements sound as if they take only playing piano professionally into account.

Maybe, but a student learning on their narrow piano wouldn't be able to play on a standard piano. Would they need to find a teacher who ALSO has a narrow key piano in order to teach them???

For 1), I see no reason why people used to full-sized keyboards would be obligated to change the type of instrument they have played all their life.

That's an easy one. 1) They may not be obligated, but I also suspect that 2) they would REFUSE to play on them.

For 2), not every person practicing in narrower-sized keyboards is a professional player who is going to perform somewhere else... they can be simply music-lovers like me, who want to be able to play what they love at home, to friends and family. Just looking at @11:05 in the video makes me wonder, why is it so wrong to deny people to be that happy about being able to play more and enjoy music in their lives?

Given that some of the people I've taught with small hands can still play a LARGE amount of the repertoire available; maybe a couple of notes are omitted to make it easier on them and given that some scores have thousands of notes, what's a few missing notes here and there.

We're not denying them the ability to enjoy music in any way, shape or form. As a teacher, I help people with small hands play the pieces they love... so I don't see what you're getting at.

[pianowhisper]

I understand your argument @perfect_pitch. It makes me realize that my perspective comes from someone who did not have any formal piano classes with a teacher and had to figure many things out on my own in my earlier years of playing. I think that, back in those days, if I weren't able to play a G minor chord with the upper tonic, there is a real possibility I might not have continued playing over the years, out of frustration, disappointment... I was fortunate enough to have average-sized hands I guess

That's an easy one. 1) They may not be obligated, but I also suspect that 2) they would REFUSE to play on them.

Fair enough, as I wouldn't want to play on them either. I am fine with the standard keyboard! lol I just imagined that bringing different models would be more inclusive and encouraging to some other people.

Given that some of the people I've taught with small hands can still play a LARGE amount of the repertoire available; maybe a couple of notes are omitted to make it easier on them and given that some scores have thousands of notes, what's a few missing notes here and there.

I get that. The person I mentioned at some point above in my previous posts (the one who could barely reach an octave) — I am not a teacher, but I remember suggesting her that she could either omit notes or roll some chords when needed.
I can recall the disappointment on her face when accepting that reality. I recall the chord in question being an E-F#-B-E with the RH, and to my ignorance, I was quite surprised that such a chord could pose a problem to others, and that not everyone can play the same notes comfortably.
I imagined the advantages (more people feeling confident playing with whatever their handspan is) would overweigh the disadvantages (not being able to play on other pianos).
Maybe my POV is too innocent/naive... just wishful thinking.

[perfect_pitch]

I don't understand why people are disappointed if they physically can't fully play and entire chord as written, or when they have to roll them. I am a piano player. I survived playing the Brahms Variations, Stravinsky's Petrushka and now I'm dabbling with Rachmaninoffs 3rd Concerto (still don't know if theres any orchestras apart from WASO who would be capable of performing it though), and I can JUST barely reach a standard 10th in piano. I can play C-E' in each hand okay, I can play D#-F#' and A#-C#' fine, but I cannot in either hand play F#-A#' at all... but this hasn't stopped me in the slightest.

I don't really see them as being that inclusive. I knew a Russian woman who was about 5'3 tall who could still play the coda of Chopins Ballade in g minor at blistering speed and she had tiny hands.

Also, think about it. Do you think most people can tell when a single note is omitted in a chord? Say you have said chord E-F#-B-E in the RH, and octave E's in the LH. You think any normal person could tell if you omitted the lower E in the RH??? I highly doubt it... only people like me would...

...but I'm a freak after all.

[brogers70]

If we bring those narrow sized pianos more and more into the market... people who learn on them will NEVER properly be able to play on the standard size and as I said, I presume they make up 99.9% of them. You would also have to completely readjust your sense of proprioception from going from the narrow to the standard and vice versa.

On the main point, I agree with you. I don't see narrow keys being particularly helpful. On the other hand, it is possible you are overstating the difficulty of switching between different key widths. Lots of people play piano and also harpsichord or organ (both of which have narrower keys than a piano) and yet they manage to switch between instruments just fine. Violas come in markedly different sizes, and if proprioception were the only thing involved, it would be a nightmare to switch among them, and yet plenty of violists have no trouble at all adapting to a different sized instrument. When I've (rarely) played a harpsichord or an organ, the difference in key size has not noticeably messed up my ability to hit the right notes - although other characteristics of those instruments have been challenging. Even on the piano, for 8 years I had a teacher who had a non-standard sized piano (slightly narrower keys). I had no problem adjusting during my lessons, and she managed to concertize often on standard size pianos. The brain is quite adaptable.

[keypeg]

Just on this part here:

Violas come in markedly different sizes, and if proprioception were the only thing involved, it would be a nightmare to switch among them, and yet plenty of violists have no trouble at all adapting to a different sized instrument.

Violists play their own instruments and take them with them.  The reason violas come in different sizes is precisely because they need to be in proportion to the player.  You move around on a piano; you're sort of attached to a viola or violin - or it to you.  Someone switching between viola and violin on the same day will fine difficulty adjusting (have encountered that scenario).

[brogers70]

Just on this part here:Violists play their own instruments and take them with them.  The reason violas come in different sizes is precisely because they need to be in proportion to the player.  You move around on a piano; you're sort of attached to a viola or violin - or it to you.  Someone switching between viola and violin on the same day will fine difficulty adjusting (have encountered that scenario).

Sure, some have trouble, but plenty don't. My argument is not that nobody would have trouble switching between different width keys, but that there are many examples of people switching without much problem. I don't think the problem is as great as was suggested.

[perfect_pitch]

Maybe... but there are piano players (even some students) who rely on that muscle memory as opposed to those that have the notes intrinsically printed in their brain and from there - play the required keys.

For those pianists relying on muscle memory - I doubt it would work well for them.

[lelle]

Maybe... but there are piano players (even some students) who rely on that muscle memory as opposed to those that have the notes intrinsically printed in their brain and from there - play the required keys.

For those pianists relying on muscle memory - I doubt it would work well for them.

I think relying on muscle memory is a big mistake so maybe it's valuable for those pianist to learn that lesson

I personally consider a piece fully learned when I can play it from memory at a fairly high standard, even if I haven't touched it for months. Having to go through it, or some troublesome passages slowly once or twice is fine too. Because then it's my mental image of the piece/notes that gets performed by my technical form of the day, rather than muscle memory that gets the job done. That feels much more secure from a memory and performance standpoint.

[timothy42b]

Sure, some have trouble, but plenty don't. My argument is not that nobody would have trouble switching between different width keys, but that there are many examples of people switching without much problem. I don't think the problem is as great as was suggested.

I haven't played a narrow keyed piano nor a viola.
I do play both tenor trombone, which has 9 feet of tubing, and alto trombone, which has 6.  Both instruments have seven positions that the slide can be in, but obviously the smaller trombone has positions that are only 2/3 as far apart.
There are no markings or frets, so the location of a position is muscle memory.  I have no trouble switching back and forth. 

[timothy42b]

I personally consider a piece fully learned when I can play it from memory at a fairly high standard, even if I haven't touched it for months. Having to go through it, or some troublesome passages slowly once or twice is fine too. Because then it's my mental image of the piece/notes that gets performed by my technical form of the day, rather than muscle memory that gets the job done.

We're using the vague term muscle memory in two different ways, I think.
Memory of the physical motions required in a given piece can be a type of memorization of that piece.  For me it is the least reliable and the quickest to depart. But that's not really what is being discussed.

The muscle memory here is the geography of the keyboard and the path in space (look up quaternion when you're bored) to get a finger on a given key.  That muscle memory is a requirement even when you're playing from sheet music, and it is a major obstacle for the beginner. 

[perfect_pitch]

I think relying on muscle memory is a big mistake so maybe it's valuable for those pianist to learn that lesson

I personally consider a piece fully learned when I can play it from memory at a fairly high standard, even if I haven't touched it for months. Having to go through it, or some troublesome passages slowly once or twice is fine too. Because then it's my mental image of the piece/notes that gets performed by my technical form of the day, rather than muscle memory that gets the job done. That feels much more secure from a memory and performance standpoint.

I think that's unfair. For some people (I think) this is how they absorb the music faster. Their brains are wired to remember the moving of hands in order to create the sound. Look at a lot of the pianists in piano competitions. I bet you that their memory comes a lot of the time purely from the recreation of the movements they have practised vigorously over and over again.

Some people can memorise the sound of each individual note in a piece, some can't.

[lelle]

We're using the vague term muscle memory in two different ways, I think.
Memory of the physical motions required in a given piece can be a type of memorization of that piece.  For me it is the least reliable and the quickest to depart. But that's not really what is being discussed.

The muscle memory here is the geography of the keyboard and the path in space (look up quaternion when you're bored) to get a finger on a given key.  That muscle memory is a requirement even when you're playing from sheet music, and it is a major obstacle for the beginner.

This is anecdotal but I have not had that much trouble transferring my Bach and Rameau repertoire to harpsichord when I have had the opportunity to play on one, despite the keys being smaller and more shallow, the feel of action being very different, and the instrument being tuned a semitone lower. I'm sure my playing sounded rather rough to a trained harpsichordist but I did not struggle with any significant increase in wrong notes compared to a normal piano. I'm assuming this is because I know my pieces in terms of which notes and chords I'm supposed to play and what those patterns look like on the keyboard geography/layout, even if said layout is smaller in size, rather than relying purely on muscle memory.

Sure there might be a general muscle memory from having practiced a myriad of typical movements a myriad times, but still, it operates according to the principle I was trying to advocate for - of a learned set of generalized movements that can be transferred to a memorized piece of music even if said piece of music has not been practiced for a while or the keyboard layout is different.

[lelle]

I think that's unfair. For some people (I think) this is how they absorb the music faster. Their brains are wired to remember the moving of hands in order to create the sound. Look at a lot of the pianists in piano competitions. I bet you that their memory comes a lot of the time purely from the recreation of the movements they have practised vigorously over and over again.

Some people can memorise the sound of each individual note in a piece, some can't.

I think that's a cop out if that person is claiming to be a professional though. Knowing your pieces in terms of what scales, harmonies, harmonic functions, notes, sounds etc are involved at any given point is not too much to ask of someone who aims to be a professional, since all of these are learned skills that need to be developed as much as your technique if you aim to play well.

Sure, if you are in a competition you'll likely have practiced your pieces a million times so you will have a solid foundation of muscle memory, but as I have seen many times, somebody who relies only on that automatic muscle memory is royally screwed if they stumble or have a memory error. You need to know your piece inside and out intellectually as well. If you know your harmony and know what harmonic progressions are involved you can improvise solutions to memory errors on the spot, as long as you know the general gist of where things are supposed to go. Etc. Again, I do not think this is too much to ask of a professional.

[perfect_pitch]

I think that's a cop out if that person is claiming to be a professional though. Knowing your pieces in terms of what scales, harmonies, harmonic functions, notes, sounds etc are involved at any given point is not too much to ask of someone who aims to be a professional, since all of these are learned skills that need to be developed as much as your technique if you aim to play well.

Sure, if you are in a competition you'll likely have practiced your pieces a million times so you will have a solid foundation of muscle memory, but as I have seen many times, somebody who relies only on that automatic muscle memory is royally screwed if they stumble or have a memory error. You need to know your piece inside and out intellectually as well. If you know your harmony and know what harmonic progressions are involved you can improvise solutions to memory errors on the spot, as long as you know the general gist of where things are supposed to go. Etc. Again, I do not think this is too much to ask of a professional.

I agree with you - and I guess the beauty of perfect pitch is I think about this far more than a lot of others... but do you think all those asian prodigies who enter the piano competitions know their pieces inside and out... theoretically, harmonically???

I doubt it.

[lelle]

I agree with you - and I guess the beauty of perfect pitch is I think about this far more than a lot of others... but do you think all those asian prodigies who enter the piano competitions know their pieces inside and out... theoretically, harmonically???

I doubt it.

Depends on what age you are referring to. If they are in their late teens/early twenties I'd expect it.

I wish I had perfect pitch. I have decent relative pitch but it's far from perfect. Good enough to hear if I get the right or the wrong note at least

[lostinidlewonder]

I'm all for narrower sized keyboards. I don't personally struggle with the normal size piano but have taught students who do and the struggle is real. Yes you can work around it but it is a lot more stressful than being able to just do it. I know some students who would be so glad if an octave was an easy stretch and playing a 10th without having to break it up would be very liberating for them.

I personally don't think it matters that much playing on narrower sized keyboards, I can still play all of my repetoire on them no problems at all it really doesn't take that much adjustment. I can understand that those with smaller hands would certainly find it a slightly more challenging because they have adjusted for larger pianos all the time, being able to finally relax would take them some time to get used to and some fingerings would change.
 
I remember this video which demonstrates how emotional the situation really can be for some pianists.

[lelle]

^That video is very touching. I'm all for there being alternative sizes of keyboards so that people with smaller hands can have an enjoyable experience too.

[lostinidlewonder]

Exactly lelle. The vast majority of people only play their own pianos anyway so they should choose freely what they want to use. If you are a professional performer then of course it is wise to keep a normal sized keyboard near you but who is to say you can't relax and play on smaller sized ones when you want to!

[brogers70]

I agree with you - and I guess the beauty of perfect pitch is I think about this far more than a lot of others... but do you think all those asian prodigies who enter the piano competitions know their pieces inside and out... theoretically, harmonically???

I doubt it.

If I were an Asian musician who played, understood, and loved Western music, I expect I'd be pretty fed up with that stereotype by now.