How do you remember long melodies for ear training?

[ranjit]

I am finding it very difficult to keep a melody which is over a measure long in short term memory. Many aural exams seem to require you to reproduce 4 measures after listening to them once. How do people develop this skill? Is it more of a talent thing, or can anyone do this with good training?

[geopianoincanada]

I wish I knew what to tell you. For me, as long as I can remember, it’s like a tape recorder built inside of my head.

I can still remember hundreds of melodies I’ve been exposed to for many years (hundreds I know because at one time I made a list and it was well over 100).

Not boasting. Just answering a question.

Perhaps it is something you’re born with. I really can’t say. Sorry.

[ranjit]

The question is how to retain a melody in the short term after hearing it once. It looks like something in this video is quite standard/simple, but I find it incredibly hard to keep it all in mind.

[lostinidlewonder]

If you hear a melody with enough repeats you can remember it rather automatically. I don't see the need to have on first listen the capability to reproduce the notes, especially if it is away from the instrument you are learning.

I learned by playing by ear and visually seeing people play the piano when I first learned the piano, so if someone plays something and I can see them play it I will remember what they did and be able to reproduce it much more easily than being away from the piano.

If the melody is memorable it becomes easier to remember, if it is just some generic rambling of notes then it can be more difficult. My aural exams always had uninspirational jumble of notes to remember which I found irritating and never really discovered what was the point in humming them back was all about? For me it just seemed to be some kind of trick which had little application to practical piano playing.

I don't find solfege to be useful in piano studies because we can produce the sounds with our fingers on the keys themselves, it is really a skill for singers and as sight singing is an important skill for them.

What I found more useful was playing by ear, that is hearing something and then being able to play it back on the piano itself, whether that took a little bit of experimenting to find the right notes or if I could do it 100% immediately didn't matter so long the result was found in the end.

[ranjit]

I understand that the skill isn't really representative of how you'd use it in real life. However, I have a problem with melodies even in the wild. I can't remember a melody a few measures in length and reproduce it on the piano. I can do it measure by measure, but the whole thing just doesn't stick, somehow. And it's making me feel pretty insecure about my own aural skills.

I don't really think long term memory is the issue, after about a dozen repeats, if I'm paying attention, I will probably remember the melody for a while, although it depends on the memorability of the piece of music.

[themeandvariation]

Lost - This is an Ear Training exercise. It is not even about playing the piano. It is not about watching someone play it, and remembering the visual.  It is about developing the ear to be able to reproduce what it just heard. This exercise - in a broader sense - has to do with developing as a musician.
This can be a very useful tool for arranging parts on the fly, without the aid of a piano. It is also useful for improvisation and, most significantly. composing.

Ranjit.
This exercise is akin to the children's game 'Operator' - where a message is whispered from one to another, and the humor of how that message is distorted - as it is passed on.
The main thing here is using your voice.
You don't have to do solfeg - as such.  You just need to be able to sing the scale in relation to the key signature. Usually the tonic is struck first - to acclimatize the ear to the proper scale.
The ear muscle may not grasp 4 bars on first listening.  Perhaps you can start smaller, by at first trying to sing back 1 bar after one listening. Then, try an exercise with 2 bars. etc.
The rhythmic dictation described in the video is a tool I use for students, and is very effective.
So, try smaller segments, and work up from there. You can practice singing bits anywhere, practically, like in the car, listening to the radio. Let it play a few second or so, turn down the radio, and repeat it with your voice.  The more you use that muscle, the stronger it gets.
Music, in its most essential experience is about listening.  Seeing it, watching it, is secondary.

[ranjit]

The ear muscle may not grasp 4 bars on first listening.  Perhaps you can start smaller, by at first trying to sing back 1 bar after one listening. Then, try an exercise with 2 bars. etc.
The rhythmic dictation described in the video is a tool I use for students, and is very effective.
So, try smaller segments, and work up from there. You can practice singing bits anywhere, practically, like in the car, listening to the radio. Let it play a few second or so, turn down the radio, and repeat it with your voice.  The more you use that muscle, the stronger it gets.

I try to do this, but I'm stuck at one bar, two if it's pretty simple. Is there anything more specific you can do to train it? I know conservatory students are asked to repeat something like 6-8 bars, and many really struggle. Is it just a talent? You hear of talented musicians and savants, for example, replaying 2 minutes of music after a single listen.

[lostinidlewonder]

Lost - This is an Ear Training exercise. It is not even about playing the piano. It is not about watching someone play it, and remembering the visual.  It is about developing the ear to be able to reproduce what it just heard. This exercise - in a broader sense - has to do with developing as a musician.

As pianists we should focus on what skills have to do with piano playing and you saying that aural memory has nothing to do with it is just plain wrong. You are contradicting yourself by saying it has to do with developing as a musician but nothing to do about playing the piano. This is a piano forum so the ideas should relate to piano and that is what my response focused in on. I related listening skills with context to piano playing and touched on sight singing for singers where this skill is much more relevant. I briefly described playing the piano by ear which is related to this skill I can't see how you can orphan it at all, rather illogical. Listening to a phrase of music and humming it all back on first listen is specifically what I consider a less useful skill if you do not connect it to the instrument you learn, this is just simple logic.

This can be a very useful tool for arranging parts on the fly, without the aid of a piano. It is also useful for improvisation and, most significantly. composing.

Why on earth would you compose away from an instrument, it is just unnecessary. If you think arranging, composing and improvising is best done in one's head without any instrument then that's up to you, I think it's just unnecessary. 

[lostinidlewonder]

I understand that the skill isn't really representative of how you'd use it in real life. However, I have a problem with melodies even in the wild. I can't remember a melody a few measures in length and reproduce it on the piano. I can do it measure by measure, but the whole thing just doesn't stick, somehow. And it's making me feel pretty insecure about my own aural skills.

I don't really think long term memory is the issue, after about a dozen repeats, if I'm paying attention, I will probably remember the melody for a while, although it depends on the memorability of the piece of music.

After multiple listening you should be able to remember what you heard in more details. I don't see what the obsession of doing it on first listen is all about. When you add the actual piano instrument to the solution then the keyboard and playing by ear skills aid in the memory of the music. I'm a practical musician and skills needs to have practical use for the instrument I am using, I don't play music solely in my head with some imaginary keyboard in my head, I need to feel the music in my hands and mind, segregating them seems unnecessary for pianists.

We have recording devices these days anyway so we don't need to memorise music asap. Back in the old days where you only could hear music when it was played by real instruments probably this memory skill would be more useful. Back in the day when students had to write out their own sheet music because there was no printing of the works they learned too. We have technology these days which help us a lot more than those olden day piano students.

[ranjit]

If you hear a melody with enough repeats you can remember it rather automatically. I don't see the need to have on first listen the capability to reproduce the notes, especially if it is away from the instrument you are learning.

It is very useful for improvising, arranging or jamming. Especially for improvisation with someone else, you want to be able to keep fragments in short term memory after one listen. Plus, I feel the ability to keep longer segments in short term memory also speeds up aural memory generally.

I also want to be able to learn music away from the instrument. I just find it more efficient to do things in my head in general and would like to be able to do that more with the piano.

[lostinidlewonder]

It is very useful for improvising, arranging or jamming.

The point is why on first listen do we need to be able to remember something when we have access to listening to something over and over again? To jam or improvise with others you need your instrument or do you want to sing scat with them lol.

Especially for improvisation with someone else, you want to be able to keep fragments in short term memory after one listen.

My specific point is that it is done with your piano not with singing it with your voice. This is a specific difference since you create the memory through playing with the piano rather than solfege solely with your voice.

Plus, I feel the ability to keep longer segments in short term memory also speeds up aural memory generally.

What is the benefit of short term memory when it evaporates anyway later on? Don't we want something with more permanence which can be reinforced with actually playing our instrument?

I also want to able to learn music away from the instrument. I just find it more efficient to do things in my head in general and would like to be able to do that more with the piano.

I don't see the logic here. I can hear so much music in my head that I can't play immediately on the piano. So even if you have a tune in your head you still need to work out how it works on the instrument you play. If I'm a singer I can hum all the tunes in my head which is fine but I'm not a singer.

[keypeg]

The question is how to retain a melody in the short term after hearing it once. It looks like something in this video is quite standard/simple, but I find it incredibly hard to keep it all in mind.

I watched the video.
First thing ---- why on earth does she have that tinny piano play the melody -- and then she sings a different melody which is supposed to help somehow.  Her "helper melody" is "Do Mi So La So Fa Re Ti Do."  I first heard it phrased as [Do Mi So La So] [Fa Re Ti] [Do].  No idea why she's sticking in that La.  Later I figured maybe she's trying to do a I-V7-I [Do Mi So (La??)] [So Fa Re Ti] [Do]

I'd throw out that helper thing altogether.

The actual melody to be memorized consists of two phrases.  The first: Do So So Do [Mi Re Do Ti] Do  I hear as Do So Do Ti Do with decorative thingamajiggers in between.  They're two logical phrases.  "Trying to remember the ending first", and all the other things seems to make it fragmented and difficult.

Those are my subjective reactions.

(Of course the whole Do Re Mi goes out the window when you get atonal )

[ranjit]

The actual melody to be memorized consists of two phrases.  The first: Do So So Do [Mi Re Do Ti] Do  I hear as Do So Do Ti Do with decorative thingamajiggers in between.  They're two logical phrases.  "Trying to remember the ending first", and all the other things seems to make it fragmented and difficult.

Those are my subjective reactions.

You know, what's strange is that I found it much easier to remember the memory the second time I watched the video right now. Long term memory helps a lot, clearly.

I would find it hard to be hard to be exact, especially by the second half of the phrase. I would probably come up with something similar, but a few notes would be off.

But I would need a new melody to say for sure...

[keypeg]

Ranjit, how are you with actual songs?  How about poetry, sayings, things of that nature?

[ranjit]

Ranjit, how are you with actual songs?  How about poetry, sayings, things of that nature?

I think I'm fairly bad with quotes. I think I'm alright with remembering lyrics to songs and so on. I've never tried to recite poetry outside of school, so I'm not sure what my ability would be in that regard.

I think I'm pretty good when it comes to my long term memory of actual songs. I can also arrange and remember a song on the fly, but again, getting those exact notes is very hard, it's approximate. I think I pick up on the gist pretty quickly.

I'm afraid you'll need to be more precise with the question for anything more detailed. Could you give me a specific scenario? I don't really know what the norm is, and good is a relative term.

[keypeg]

Ranjit, it was a stab in the dark.  In the first place, the example this lady gave was a neat set of two phrases, which we also have in songs.  So if by the off chance it is easy for to you remember simple songs, children's songs, nursery rhymes, you might have been able to hear that.  If someone gives me "Twinkle, twinkle little star / How I wonder what you are." (the words), I would not do something abstract like "remember the last two words ("you are") and work backward - as was suggested.  The entire thing makes sense to me, and it forms a pattern.  I absorb music the same way.

[ranjit]

Ranjit, it was a stab in the dark.  In the first place, the example this lady gave was a neat set of two phrases, which we also have in songs.  So if by the off chance it is easy for to you remember simple songs, children's songs, nursery rhymes, you might have been able to hear that.  If someone gives me "Twinkle, twinkle little star / How I wonder what you are." (the words), I would not do something abstract like "remember the last two words ("you are") and work backward - as was suggested.  The entire thing makes sense to me, and it forms a pattern.  I absorb music the same way.

Oh, I see -- I definitely immediately notice the antecedent - consequent phrase structure, it's just that I find it hard to sing the entire thing back after one listen. I think the way I perceive it would be quite similar to how you do at a basic level. Can you keep all the details in memory immediately? I found this hard to do on my first listen. I could reproduce the first phrase exactly, and key notes in the second phrase but not all the details.