Piano Forum

Pages: [1] Go Down

Topic: Levels of Etudes (Read 3196 times)

stringbot

PS Silver Member
Jr. Member
Posts: 29

Hi,
I am making a video where I rank difficulty of etudes with 8 levels of difficulty and play excerpts from them. Right now the piece I have chosen at no. 7 is Feux Follets. I am trying to choose one for no. 8 that is harder than Feux Follets, preferably not a Liszt or Chopin etude since I already have a lot of those. Does anyone have any suggestions? I also don't have big hands.
Thanks!

Logged

ahinton

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 12147

Re: Levels of Etudes

Reply #1 on: August 30, 2022, 04:03:46 PM

Quote from: stringbot on August 30, 2022, 02:51:54 PM

Hi,
I am making a video where I rank difficulty of etudes with 8 levels of difficulty and play excerpts from them. Right now the piece I have chosen at no. 7 is Feux Follets. I am trying to choose one for no. 8 that is harder than Feux Follets, preferably not a Liszt or Chopin etude since I already have a lot of those. Does anyone have any suggestions? I also don't have big hands.
Thanks!

If you're considering works roughly contemporary with Chopin and Liszt, there a quite a few challenging études by Méreaux and Alkan (the latter, I think, being on a far higher level of inspiration than the former) and, if more recent ones, then Sorabji and Ligeti have plenty to offer.

Logged

Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

stringbot

PS Silver Member
Jr. Member
Posts: 29

Re: Levels of Etudes

Reply #2 on: August 30, 2022, 04:46:37 PM

Thanks! I will try them.

Logged

lelle

PS Gold Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 2442

Re: Levels of Etudes

Reply #3 on: August 30, 2022, 06:41:47 PM

Perhaps on of Godowsky's Chopin etude arrangements?

Logged

nightwindsonata

PS Silver Member
Full Member
Posts: 157

Re: Levels of Etudes

Reply #4 on: August 30, 2022, 07:04:22 PM

Here are a few candidates:
Brahms Paganini Variations:

Hamelin Triple Etude:

Rachmaninoff Etude Op. 39 No. 6 "Little Red Riding Hood."

Moskovsky Etudes Op. 72

Alkan Le Festin D'Esope

Ligeti Devil's Staircase

This out to get you started in your quest to find a trickier etude than feux follets!

Logged

1st-year Master's Program:
- Ravel Piano Concerto
- Liszt Ricordanza
- Liszt 3 Liebestraums
- Liszt 3 Sonnets

- Rhapsody in Blue
- Dante Sonata
- Schubert Sonata D.780
- Mozart Piano Quartet in Gm

stringbot

PS Silver Member
Jr. Member
Posts: 29

Re: Levels of Etudes

Reply #5 on: August 31, 2022, 12:08:08 AM

Quote from: lelle on August 30, 2022, 06:41:47 PM

Perhaps on of Godowsky's Chopin etude arrangements?

Oh wow! I looked at that and it really does seem like it should be level 8.

Logged

stringbot

PS Silver Member
Jr. Member
Posts: 29

Re: Levels of Etudes

Reply #6 on: August 31, 2022, 12:10:28 AM

Quote from: nightwindsonata on August 30, 2022, 07:04:22 PM

Here are a few candidates:
Brahms Paganini Variations:

Hamelin Triple Etude:

Rachmaninoff Etude Op. 39 No. 6 "Little Red Riding Hood."

Moskovsky Etudes Op. 72

Alkan Le Festin D'Esope

Ligeti Devil's Staircase

This out to get you started in your quest to find a trickier etude than feux follets!

Thanks for so many varieties of suggestions! These are really good. I did consider a lot of them especially the last one.

Logged

ahinton

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 12147

Re: Levels of Etudes

Reply #7 on: August 31, 2022, 12:54:46 PM

Excellent suggetions from lelle and nightwindsonata! The 65 or so Chopin/Godowsky studies, of which 54 were published, are essentials, to my mind.

Marc-André Hamelin's Triple Étude after Chopin is now the first of his set of 12 Studies in the Minor Keys, he having substituted it for his earlier study in the same key (A minor) Le vol du bourdon (The flight of the bumble-bee, after Rimsky-Korsakov); it combines Chopin's three études in A minor (Opp. 10/2 and 25/4 & 25/11). In response to it I was promted to revive (and revise, from memory) my own study initially entitled Les trois Chopins that likewise treated all three Chopin A minor études; it dated from 1977 but, on discovery that Godowsky had written one such which had not been published, I considered the possibility that it might one day be published and therefore decided to introduce it to the waste-bin (there were no small-scale paper shredderes in those days). The new version is entitled Étude en forme de Chopin and is apprioriately dedicated to Marc-André; as well as combining material from those three Chopin études, it quotes from many other Chopin études during its course. Copies may be obtained by writing to sorabji.archive@gmail.com and its first page may be viewed, both in ms. and typeset edition, towards the end of the page https://www.sorabji-archive.co.uk/hinton/scores.php .

Logged

Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

stringbot

PS Silver Member
Jr. Member
Posts: 29

Re: Levels of Etudes

Reply #8 on: August 31, 2022, 02:50:35 PM

Quote from: ahinton on August 31, 2022, 12:54:46 PM

Excellent suggetions from lelle and nightwindsonata! The 65 or so Chopin/Godowsky studies, of which 54 were published, are essentials, to my mind.

Marc-André Hamelin's Triple Étude after Chopin is now the first of his set of 12 Studies in the Minor Keys, he having substituted it for his earlier study in the same key (A minor) Le vol du bourdon (The flight of the bumble-bee, after Rimsky-Korsakov); it combines Chopin's three études in A minor (Opp. 10/2 and 25/4 & 25/11). In response to it I was promted to revive (and revise, from memory) my own study initially entitled Les trois Chopins that likewise treated all three Chopin A minor études; it dated from 1977 but, on discovery that Godowsky had written one such which had not been published, I considered the possibility that it might one day be published and therefore decided to introduce it to the waste-bin (there were no small-scale paper shredderes in those days). The new version is entitled Étude en forme de Chopin and is apprioriately dedicated to Marc-André; as well as combining material from those three Chopin études, it quotes from many other Chopin études during its course. Copies may be obtained by writing to sorabji.archive@gmail.com and its first page may be viewed, both in ms. and typeset edition, towards the end of the page https://www.sorabji-archive.co.uk/hinton/scores.php .

Thanks for the explanations! I never even knew there was a flight of the bumblebee after Rimsky-Korsakov.

Logged

lelle

PS Gold Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 2442

Re: Levels of Etudes

Reply #9 on: August 31, 2022, 07:26:15 PM

Quote from: ahinton on August 31, 2022, 12:54:46 PM

Excellent suggetions from lelle and nightwindsonata! The 65 or so Chopin/Godowsky studies, of which 54 were published, are essentials, to my mind.

Marc-André Hamelin's Triple Étude after Chopin is now the first of his set of 12 Studies in the Minor Keys, he having substituted it for his earlier study in the same key (A minor) Le vol du bourdon (The flight of the bumble-bee, after Rimsky-Korsakov); it combines Chopin's three études in A minor (Opp. 10/2 and 25/4 & 25/11). In response to it I was promted to revive (and revise, from memory) my own study initially entitled Les trois Chopins that likewise treated all three Chopin A minor études; it dated from 1977 but, on discovery that Godowsky had written one such which had not been published, I considered the possibility that it might one day be published and therefore decided to introduce it to the waste-bin (there were no small-scale paper shredderes in those days). The new version is entitled Étude en forme de Chopin and is apprioriately dedicated to Marc-André; as well as combining material from those three Chopin études, it quotes from many other Chopin études during its course. Copies may be obtained by writing to sorabji.archive@gmail.com and its first page may be viewed, both in ms. and typeset edition, towards the end of the page https://www.sorabji-archive.co.uk/hinton/scores.php .

I get redirected to a site called affiliatecavern dot com when I click your link, just so you know.

Logged

ahinton

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 12147

Re: Levels of Etudes

Reply #10 on: August 31, 2022, 09:40:43 PM

Quote from: lelle on August 31, 2022, 07:26:15 PM

I get redirected to a site called affiliatecavern dot com when I click your link, just so you know.

Never heard of it and I don't get that when I go there!

Logged

Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

stringbot

PS Silver Member
Jr. Member
Posts: 29

Re: Levels of Etudes

Reply #11 on: September 02, 2022, 12:17:14 AM

Quote from: lelle on August 31, 2022, 07:26:15 PM

I get redirected to a site called affiliatecavern dot com when I click your link, just so you know.

My computer just blocked the site.

Logged

fignewton

PS Silver Member
Jr. Member
Posts: 35

Re: Levels of Etudes

Reply #12 on: September 02, 2022, 01:11:51 AM

I agree with Godowsky/Chopin possibly being no. 8. I think to play certain Godowsky Chopin etudes at the same standard that the regular Chopin etudes are frequently performed at would be the hardest pianistic feat. Particularly one like this in which the texture is pretty clear and the tempo basically has to be the same as the regular 25/6 etude:

Someone should write an arrangement of Feux Follet for the left hand..

Logged

stringbot

PS Silver Member
Jr. Member
Posts: 29

Re: Levels of Etudes

Reply #13 on: September 02, 2022, 02:37:26 AM

Quote from: fignewton on September 02, 2022, 01:11:51 AM

Someone should write an arrangement of Feux Follet for the left hand..

I agree.

Logged

perfect_pitch

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 9036

Re: Levels of Etudes

Reply #14 on: September 02, 2022, 09:48:26 AM

Quote from: stringbot on September 02, 2022, 12:17:14 AM

My computer just blocked the site.

Mine too.

Logged

https://www.youtube.com/c/EpicPianoArrangements (Videos)
https://www.musicnotes.com/sheet-music/artist/epic-piano-arrangements (Sheet Music)

ahinton

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 12147

Re: Levels of Etudes

Reply #15 on: September 02, 2022, 12:24:16 PM

Quote from: fignewton on September 02, 2022, 01:11:51 AM

Someone should write an arrangement of Feux Follet for the left hand..

I wouldn't wish such an improbable task on anyone! I cannot imagine how it could possibly be made to work convincingly...

Logged

Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

cuberdrift

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 617

Re: Levels of Etudes

Reply #16 on: September 07, 2022, 11:40:26 AM

Quote from: stringbot on August 30, 2022, 02:51:54 PM

Hi,
I am making a video where I rank difficulty of etudes with 8 levels of difficulty and play excerpts from them. Right now the piece I have chosen at no. 7 is Feux Follets. I am trying to choose one for no. 8 that is harder than Feux Follets, preferably not a Liszt or Chopin etude since I already have a lot of those. Does anyone have any suggestions? I also don't have big hands.
Thanks!

Czerny's Grand Etude op. 364 is absolutely insane and I hate it that no one has performed it yet. I will try to be the first one to do.

I mean, how can one know about Mereaux and Alkan and not know this work. It would sound pretty good if played properly in my opinion.

Logged

stringbot

PS Silver Member
Jr. Member
Posts: 29

Re: Levels of Etudes

Reply #17 on: September 07, 2022, 06:51:09 PM

Quote from: cuberdrift on September 07, 2022, 11:40:26 AM

Czerny's Grand Etude op. 364 is absolutely insane and I hate it that no one has performed it yet. I will try to be the first one to do.

I mean, how can one know about Mereaux and Alkan and not know this work. It would sound pretty good if played properly in my opinion.

Ohhh, thanks for the post. I actually did not know about this etude until now.

Logged

anacrusis

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 814

Re: Levels of Etudes

Reply #18 on: September 14, 2022, 08:10:21 AM

The midi doesn't help but I feel that Czerny Etude is pretty stupid to be honest. Difficult, yes, but musically it's not much to write home about :/

Logged

cuberdrift

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 617

Re: Levels of Etudes

Reply #19 on: September 15, 2022, 05:11:36 AM

Quote from: anacrusis on September 14, 2022, 08:10:21 AM

The midi doesn't help but I feel that Czerny Etude is pretty stupid to be honest. Difficult, yes, but musically it's not much to write home about :/

It's not much worse than the faster Chopin etudes in my opinion, which are already musically conservative. The only musically impressive etudes in the romantic era are Liszt's transcendental etudes.

That, and a proper performance by a human being means almost everything in terms of the perceived musical value of a work. Hardly any serious performer records/plays Czerny, and those that do don't do it as well as the greats (Cortot, Horowitz, Cziffra, Gould, etc.) so obviously this isn't gonna raise Czerny's (or any other "obscure" classical composer) reputation as an artist.

Logged

ahinton

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 12147

Re: Levels of Etudes

Reply #20 on: September 15, 2022, 08:24:47 AM

Quote from: cuberdrift on September 15, 2022, 05:11:36 AM

the faster Chopin etudes in my opinion, which are already musically conservative. The only musically impressive etudes in the romantic era are Liszt's transcendental etudes.

Chopin's and Alkan's are "conservative" and "not musically impressive" contributions to the piano étude during the Romantic era? Really?...

Logged

Alistair Hinton
Curator / Director
The Sorabji Archive

ronde_des_sylphes

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 2951

Re: Levels of Etudes

Reply #21 on: September 15, 2022, 10:46:25 AM

Quote from: cuberdrift on September 15, 2022, 05:11:36 AM

It's not much worse than the faster Chopin etudes in my opinion, which are already musically conservative. The only musically impressive etudes in the romantic era are Liszt's transcendental etudes.

...

Hardly any serious performer records/plays Czerny, and those that do don't do it as well as the greats (Cortot, Horowitz, Cziffra, Gould, etc.) so obviously this isn't gonna raise Czerny's (or any other "obscure" classical composer) reputation as an artist.

The Liapunov set is great! Also Henselt's are worthy of examination.

Libetta has given some great performances of Czerny, eg

Logged

My website - www.andrewwrightpianist.com
Info and samples from my first commercial album - https://youtu.be/IlRtSyPAVNU
My SoundCloud - https://soundcloud.com/andrew-wright-35

cuberdrift

PS Silver Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 617

Re: Levels of Etudes

Reply #22 on: September 15, 2022, 02:48:41 PM

Quote from: ahinton on September 15, 2022, 08:24:47 AM

Chopin's and Alkan's are "conservative" and "not musically impressive" contributions to the piano étude during the Romantic era? Really?...

They're fine, I was just responding to the remark on the Czerny piece being "stupid". Personally I find it to be just a notch below the average fast Chopin or Alkan etude. And that's also besides the fact that I haven't yet heard an actual performance of it.

Quote from: ronde_des_sylphes on September 15, 2022, 10:46:25 AM

The Liapunov set is great! Also Henselt's are worthy of examination.

Libetta has given some great performances of Czerny, eg

The Libetta recordings are quite nicely executed, though the Op. 740 isn't really the "musical" set as far as Czerny etude lists go - that would belong to Op. 692, Op. 754, or Op. 756. For example:

The "Ocean" I find to be a better depiction of a storm at sea than Chopin's - I wonder who copied from whom.

I have a soft spot for Czerny, even if I find repetitiveness to be a flaw of many of his works. After all, he taught Liszt, who's my favourite composer for the piano. That the Transcendental Studies were dedicated to him certainly means something.

Logged

krncandi

PS Silver Member
Jr. Member
Posts: 26

Re: Levels of Etudes

Reply #23 on: November 03, 2022, 02:56:51 AM

Some other etudes that are so difficult that haven't been named are Debussy etude book II pour les accords, Bartok's 3 etudes which are horrendously difficult, Prokofiev's etude no. 1, Bolcom's twelve etudes and his twelve new etudes, Ohana's etudes, and Scriabin's etudes no. 9 and10 op.8, etude no. 1 op.65

Logged

hmoll53

PS Silver Member
Jr. Member
Posts: 52

Re: Levels of Etudes

Reply #24 on: November 03, 2022, 10:58:13 PM

Level 1: Cznery Etude
Level 2: Chopin, Op.25 No.2
Level 3: Prokofiev Etude No.4
Level 4: Debussy, Etude No.11
Level 5: Rachmaninoff, Op.39 No.5
Level 6: Scriabin, Op.42 No.5
Level 7: Liszt, Feux Follets
Level 8: Ligeti Etude No.13

Logged

Some Current Repertoire:
Scriabin: Sonatas 2,4 and 5
Chopin: Ballade 1,4, Scherzo 1
Rachmaninoff: Concerto 3
Ravel: Gaspard de la Nuit
Barber: Sonata
Beethoven: Appassionata

Sign-up to post reply

Pages: [1] Go Up

For more information about this topic, click search below!

Piano Street Magazine:
The World of Piano Competitions – issue 1 2024

The World of Piano Competitions is a magazine initiated by PIANIST Magazine (Netherlands and Germany) and its Editor-in-Chief Eric Schoones. Here we get a rich insight into the world of international piano competitions through the eyes of its producers and participants. Read more

Piano Forum

Topic: Levels of Etudes (Read 3196 times)

Piano Street Magazine:The World of Piano Competitions – issue 1 2024

Piano Street Magazine:
The World of Piano Competitions – issue 1 2024