Levels of Etudes

[stringbot]

Hi,
I am making a video where I rank difficulty of etudes with 8 levels of difficulty and play excerpts from them. Right now the piece I have chosen at no. 7 is Feux Follets. I am trying to choose one for no. 8 that is harder than Feux Follets, preferably not a Liszt or Chopin etude since I already have a lot of those. Does anyone have any suggestions? I also don't have big hands.
Thanks!

[ahinton]

Hi,
I am making a video where I rank difficulty of etudes with 8 levels of difficulty and play excerpts from them. Right now the piece I have chosen at no. 7 is Feux Follets. I am trying to choose one for no. 8 that is harder than Feux Follets, preferably not a Liszt or Chopin etude since I already have a lot of those. Does anyone have any suggestions? I also don't have big hands.
Thanks!

If you're considering works roughly contemporary with Chopin and Liszt, there a quite a few challenging études by Méreaux and Alkan (the latter, I think, being on a far higher level of inspiration than the former) and, if more recent ones, then Sorabji and Ligeti have plenty to offer.

[stringbot]

Thanks! I will try them.

[lelle]

Perhaps on of Godowsky's Chopin etude arrangements?

[nightwindsonata]

Here are a few candidates:
Brahms Paganini Variations:

Hamelin Triple Etude:

Rachmaninoff Etude Op. 39 No. 6 "Little Red Riding Hood."

Moskovsky Etudes Op. 72

Alkan Le Festin D'Esope

Ligeti Devil's Staircase

This out to get you started in your quest to find a trickier etude than feux follets!

[stringbot]

Perhaps on of Godowsky's Chopin etude arrangements?

Oh wow! I looked at that and it really does seem like it should be level 8.

[stringbot]

Here are a few candidates:
Brahms Paganini Variations:

Hamelin Triple Etude:

Rachmaninoff Etude Op. 39 No. 6 "Little Red Riding Hood."

Moskovsky Etudes Op. 72

Alkan Le Festin D'Esope

Ligeti Devil's Staircase

This out to get you started in your quest to find a trickier etude than feux follets!

Thanks for so many varieties of suggestions! These are really good. I did consider a lot of them especially the last one.

[ahinton]

Excellent suggetions from lelle and nightwindsonata! The 65 or so Chopin/Godowsky studies, of which 54 were published, are essentials, to my mind.

Marc-André Hamelin's Triple Étude after Chopin is now the first of his set of 12 Studies in the Minor Keys, he having substituted it for his earlier study in the same key (A minor) Le vol du bourdon (The flight of the bumble-bee, after Rimsky-Korsakov); it combines Chopin's three études in A minor (Opp. 10/2 and 25/4 & 25/11). In response to it I was promted to revive (and revise, from memory) my own study initially entitled Les trois Chopins that likewise treated all three Chopin A minor études; it dated from 1977 but, on discovery that Godowsky had written one such which had not been published, I considered the possibility that it might one day be published and therefore decided to introduce it to the waste-bin (there were no small-scale paper shredderes in those days). The new version is entitled Étude en forme de Chopin and is apprioriately dedicated to Marc-André; as well as combining material from those three Chopin études, it quotes from many other Chopin études during its course. Copies may be obtained by writing to sorabji.archive@gmail.com and its first page may be viewed, both in ms. and typeset edition, towards the end of the page https://www.sorabji-archive.co.uk/hinton/scores.php .

[stringbot]

Excellent suggetions from lelle and nightwindsonata! The 65 or so Chopin/Godowsky studies, of which 54 were published, are essentials, to my mind.

Marc-André Hamelin's Triple Étude after Chopin is now the first of his set of 12 Studies in the Minor Keys, he having substituted it for his earlier study in the same key (A minor) Le vol du bourdon (The flight of the bumble-bee, after Rimsky-Korsakov); it combines Chopin's three études in A minor (Opp. 10/2 and 25/4 & 25/11). In response to it I was promted to revive (and revise, from memory) my own study initially entitled Les trois Chopins that likewise treated all three Chopin A minor études; it dated from 1977 but, on discovery that Godowsky had written one such which had not been published, I considered the possibility that it might one day be published and therefore decided to introduce it to the waste-bin (there were no small-scale paper shredderes in those days). The new version is entitled Étude en forme de Chopin and is apprioriately dedicated to Marc-André; as well as combining material from those three Chopin études, it quotes from many other Chopin études during its course. Copies may be obtained by writing to sorabji.archive@gmail.com and its first page may be viewed, both in ms. and typeset edition, towards the end of the page https://www.sorabji-archive.co.uk/hinton/scores.php .

Thanks for the explanations! I never even knew there was a flight of the bumblebee after Rimsky-Korsakov.

[lelle]

Excellent suggetions from lelle and nightwindsonata! The 65 or so Chopin/Godowsky studies, of which 54 were published, are essentials, to my mind.

Marc-André Hamelin's Triple Étude after Chopin is now the first of his set of 12 Studies in the Minor Keys, he having substituted it for his earlier study in the same key (A minor) Le vol du bourdon (The flight of the bumble-bee, after Rimsky-Korsakov); it combines Chopin's three études in A minor (Opp. 10/2 and 25/4 & 25/11). In response to it I was promted to revive (and revise, from memory) my own study initially entitled Les trois Chopins that likewise treated all three Chopin A minor études; it dated from 1977 but, on discovery that Godowsky had written one such which had not been published, I considered the possibility that it might one day be published and therefore decided to introduce it to the waste-bin (there were no small-scale paper shredderes in those days). The new version is entitled Étude en forme de Chopin and is apprioriately dedicated to Marc-André; as well as combining material from those three Chopin études, it quotes from many other Chopin études during its course. Copies may be obtained by writing to sorabji.archive@gmail.com and its first page may be viewed, both in ms. and typeset edition, towards the end of the page https://www.sorabji-archive.co.uk/hinton/scores.php .

I get redirected to a site called affiliatecavern dot com when I click your link, just so you know.

[ahinton]

I get redirected to a site called affiliatecavern dot com when I click your link, just so you know.

Never heard of it and I don't get that when I go there!

[stringbot]

I get redirected to a site called affiliatecavern dot com when I click your link, just so you know.

My computer just blocked the site.

[fignewton]

I agree with Godowsky/Chopin possibly being no. 8. I think to play certain Godowsky Chopin etudes at the same standard that the regular Chopin etudes are frequently performed at would be the hardest pianistic feat. Particularly one like this in which the texture is pretty clear and the tempo basically has to be the same as the regular 25/6 etude:

Someone should write an arrangement of Feux Follet for the left hand..

[stringbot]

Someone should write an arrangement of Feux Follet for the left hand..

I agree.

[perfect_pitch]

My computer just blocked the site.

Mine too.

[ahinton]

Someone should write an arrangement of Feux Follet for the left hand..

I wouldn't wish such an improbable task on anyone! I cannot imagine how it could possibly be made to work convincingly...

[cuberdrift]

Hi,
I am making a video where I rank difficulty of etudes with 8 levels of difficulty and play excerpts from them. Right now the piece I have chosen at no. 7 is Feux Follets. I am trying to choose one for no. 8 that is harder than Feux Follets, preferably not a Liszt or Chopin etude since I already have a lot of those. Does anyone have any suggestions? I also don't have big hands.
Thanks!

Czerny's Grand Etude op. 364 is absolutely insane and I hate it that no one has performed it yet. I will try to be the first one to do.

I mean, how can one know about Mereaux and Alkan and not know this work. It would sound pretty good if played properly in my opinion.

[stringbot]

Czerny's Grand Etude op. 364 is absolutely insane and I hate it that no one has performed it yet. I will try to be the first one to do.

I mean, how can one know about Mereaux and Alkan and not know this work. It would sound pretty good if played properly in my opinion.

Ohhh, thanks for the post. I actually did not know about this etude until now.

[anacrusis]

The midi doesn't help but I feel that Czerny Etude is pretty stupid to be honest. Difficult, yes, but musically it's not much to write home about :/

[cuberdrift]

The midi doesn't help but I feel that Czerny Etude is pretty stupid to be honest. Difficult, yes, but musically it's not much to write home about :/

It's not much worse than the faster Chopin etudes in my opinion, which are already musically conservative. The only musically impressive etudes in the romantic era are Liszt's transcendental etudes.

That, and a proper performance by a human being means almost everything in terms of the perceived musical value of a work. Hardly any serious performer records/plays Czerny, and those that do don't do it as well as the greats (Cortot, Horowitz, Cziffra, Gould, etc.) so obviously this isn't gonna raise Czerny's (or any other "obscure" classical composer) reputation as an artist.

[ahinton]

the faster Chopin etudes in my opinion, which are already musically conservative. The only musically impressive etudes in the romantic era are Liszt's transcendental etudes.

Chopin's and Alkan's are "conservative" and "not musically impressive" contributions to the piano étude during the Romantic era? Really?...

[ronde_des_sylphes]

It's not much worse than the faster Chopin etudes in my opinion, which are already musically conservative. The only musically impressive etudes in the romantic era are Liszt's transcendental etudes.

...

Hardly any serious performer records/plays Czerny, and those that do don't do it as well as the greats (Cortot, Horowitz, Cziffra, Gould, etc.) so obviously this isn't gonna raise Czerny's (or any other "obscure" classical composer) reputation as an artist.

The Liapunov set is great! Also Henselt's are worthy of examination.

Libetta has given some great performances of Czerny, eg

[cuberdrift]

Chopin's and Alkan's are "conservative" and "not musically impressive" contributions to the piano étude during the Romantic era? Really?...

They're fine, I was just responding to the remark on the Czerny piece being "stupid". Personally I find it to be just a notch below the average fast Chopin or Alkan etude. And that's also besides the fact that I haven't yet heard an actual performance of it.

The Liapunov set is great! Also Henselt's are worthy of examination.

Libetta has given some great performances of Czerny, eg

The Libetta recordings are quite nicely executed, though the Op. 740 isn't really the "musical" set as far as Czerny etude lists go - that would belong to Op. 692, Op. 754, or Op. 756. For example:

The "Ocean" I find to be a better depiction of a storm at sea than Chopin's - I wonder who copied from whom.

I have a soft spot for Czerny, even if I find repetitiveness to be a flaw of many of his works. After all, he taught Liszt, who's my favourite composer for the piano. That the Transcendental Studies were dedicated to him certainly means something.

[krncandi]

Some other etudes that are so difficult that haven't been named are Debussy etude book II pour les accords, Bartok's 3 etudes which are horrendously difficult, Prokofiev's etude no. 1, Bolcom's twelve etudes and his twelve new etudes, Ohana's etudes, and Scriabin's etudes no. 9 and10 op.8, etude no. 1 op.65

[hmoll53]

Level 1: Cznery Etude
Level 2: Chopin, Op.25 No.2
Level 3: Prokofiev Etude No.4
Level 4: Debussy, Etude No.11
Level 5: Rachmaninoff, Op.39 No.5
Level 6: Scriabin, Op.42 No.5
Level 7: Liszt, Feux Follets
Level 8: Ligeti Etude No.13