Did I Steal Another Teacher's Student?

[bwl_13]

This situation isn't really all that dramatic (as far as I know).

I've been working with a student for the past 9 months or so. The student came to me after their previous teacher went on mat leave and I was referred by my teacher (since she had no space in her studio). I contacted the teacher to ask her how long I'll be working with the student and when she'll be ready to take her on again, she initially told me sometime in Spring but later extended it to September.

The parents of this student are very particular with the time that the lessons take place. It is always, without fail, Saturday at 4:00pm. There's been a few times when I couldn't do that time and rescheduled to an hour earlier or later, but they always insisted on skipping the lesson rather than rescheduling.

Last week was supposed to be my last lesson with this student. I asked their father if he's been in contact with the previous teacher. The father told me that he has but the teacher can no longer offer them Saturdays at 4:00. He told me he'd get back to me before next week to let me know if they'll be continuing with me (since I can offer the time).

I got an email this morning that they'll be continuing lessons with me. I'm happy, because I don't have too many students and I enjoy teaching, but I can't help but feel like I might be a little in the wrong morally. I have not been in contact with the other teacher, so I don't know how she feels about it. I guess the saving grace is that they would've gone back if she'd offered them the time they wanted.

What's the general consensus about this sort of thing? I know some teachers are very protective of students but others would say it's fine. This other teacher is fairly well known in the community and I don't want to get a bad reputation with other teachers as somebody who "poaches" students. Again, I personally don't really agree with this lingo surrounding "stealing" students (they're not possessions and they should do what's best for them) but I know some people think that way.

[ignomike]

This will happen, the reason doesn't really matter but no reasonable teacher would blame you. Yes we do value our students but it's a business and the clients can shop where they like for any reason.

[perfect_pitch]

I wouldn't feel bad - a lot of the time I've had transfer students from teachers who aren't as good at their job as I am (I know that sounds like a sort of brag, but the only reason I'm a good teacher is because I had MANY mistakes I had to correct myself, and can truly understand the students perspective).

The reason they continued with me is because I proved that for almost the same hourly rate, my advice that I was giving was far more beneficial and helpful to them. If they choose you over them - they saw something better about you as a teacher than the other person - you deserve the win.

[lostinidlewonder]

The teacher was 9 months absent and cannot offer them the old time slot so they should expect they will lose the student.

[keypeg]

I agree with the other answers, but would like to also add perspective from the other side.  When I'm the student, I am not an object to be stolen or kept.  Students and parents of students make considered choices.

[quantum]

Students need to make choices that reflect their learning objectives and lifestyle.  These can change over time, and it is within reasonable expectation that changes may occur.  IMO, a student's needs are always more important than a teachers need to make a profit.  Students are not owned by teachers, and they should never be treated as teaching trophies. 

From  what the OP described, it appears the student made a choice that they thought was best for their situation.  There was effort made to communicate with the previous teacher, and that said teacher could not accommodate the student.  IMO, don't worry about it. 

As for your reputation as a teacher, try to think more in terms of how your students respond as opposed to what other teachers think of you.  As a teacher, your primary objective is to serve your students.  Don't spend too much time worrying about what other teachers think of you.  Having students that are happy with their lessons, as well as being successful in their learning goals, speaks volumes about your teaching as opposed to gossip between teachers.

You earned the respect of this student, and they made the choice to continue with you.  Don't be ashamed of that. 

[anacrusis]

I agree with the other answers, but would like to also add perspective from the other side.  When I'm the student, I am not an object to be stolen or kept.  Students and parents of students make considered choices.

Well said! It's like saying you stole someone's girlfriend/boyfriend. You can't steal a person unless you like threaten them or something lol. People make their own choices for their own reasons. Teachers who try to control students and keep a hold of them for their own egoic reasons are a big red flag IMO.

[timothy42b]

The teacher was 9 months absent and cannot offer them the old time slot so they should expect they will lose the student.

Or so they said.

It may be true; you did mention how insistent on that time slot they are.
It may be a way to switch teachers without having an awkward conversation.
 
Either way you were correct in offering to return the student, and if the paying customer doesn't want that they are free to make the switch to you.  I would accept it and drive on. 

[lostinidlewonder]

Or so they said.

It may be true; you did mention how insistent on that time slot they are.
It may be a way to switch teachers without having an awkward conversation.

Why would we doubt the information given in the OP? Seems rather irrational. The factors I pointed out even just one of them is valid enough to change teachers, having both in action just makes the decision to leave that much easier.

[timothy42b]

Why would we doubt the information given in the OP? Seems rather irrational. The factors I pointed out even just one of them is valid enough to change teachers, having both in action just makes the decision to leave that much easier.

Because it came second hand, from a parent who has decided to stay with the OP.  I am not doubting the OP's explanation, but it has to be considered partial information.  Most people leaving a teacher do not give a detailed exit interview, especially if it will hurt feelings. 

[lostinidlewonder]

Because it came second hand, from a parent who has decided to stay with the OP.

I think you missed the point that bwl_13 actually contacted the other teacher themselves via email and got response, so there is no 2nd hand info in that respect confirming the time away from the student. Also bwl_13 has said they have been teaching this student for 9 months, again not 2nd hand information. I don't see how a teacher can have hurt feeling that a student is lost if they were away from the student for months on end and cannot offer the student a time slot which is suitable. Try teaching a student for 10 years only to get an SMS one week saying that they want to end lessons.

There really is no logical reason why we should doubt any of the information provided in the OP, I don't see any constructive outcome from doing that in any case. It certainly reads that you are doubting the information by mentioning what you think is 2nd hand information and also partial information, is that not doubt it certainly sounds like doubt, certainly doesn't sound like supporting the reliability of the information given in the OP.

[timothy42b]

I think you missed the point that bwl_13 actually contacted the other teacher themselves via email and got response, so there is no 2nd hand info in that respect confirming the time away from the student.

I totally missed that, you are correct.  I was working with this quote from bw_13:

I have not been in contact with the other teacher, so I don't know how she feels about it.

Apologies.  Er..................

[lostinidlewonder]

Ah that makes sense if I were to only read that line too I would have thought the same as yourself.

[timothy42b]

Ah that makes sense if I were to only read that line too I would have thought the same as yourself.

And.............there's another line somewhere that I missed?  Couldn't find it. 

[lostinidlewonder]

And.............there's another line somewhere that I missed?  Couldn't find it. 

What other line? You mean the one where they said they were in contact with the other teacher and got a response about the other teacher returning in Spring which then later extended to September (this logically means more than 1 response has been made back to BWL from this teacher)? Or the line where the bwl states they have been teaching this student for 9 months and bwl actually emailed that teacher asking how long they would be working with this student in the absence of the other teacher due to maternity leave? All stated in the first paragraph?

[keypeg]

Timothy, you are right that there was no response from the original teacher about this last matter.  I've reread the OP a couple of times.
Meanwhile my eye caught this (italics mine)

Either way you were correct  ooffering to return the student, and if the paying customer doesn't want that they are free to make the switch to you.  I would accept it and drive on.

Students are not property to be "returned" or relinquished.  A student is a customer who decides with whom he or she chooses to do business.  This student chose to continue with the OP and that's the end of it. The student's choice.

If I were a student in these circumstances, and if the teacher I chose to study with felt obligated to "return" me to the original teacher, maybe upon that teacher's insistence, I might decide to work with neither of them, and find someone who respects my choices.

[lostinidlewonder]

Timothy, you are right that there was no response from the original teacher about this last matter.

You also can't read the first paragraph with comprehension?


- I've been working with a student for the past 9 months or so.
- The student came to me after their previous teacher went on mat leave .....
- I contacted the teacher to ask her how long I'll be working with the student and when she'll be ready to take her on again...
- ... she initially told me sometime in Spring but later extended it to September.

No response from the initial teacher? What the heck are you on about?

[keypeg]

You also can't read the first paragraph with comprehension?

I wrote "ABOUT THIS LAST MATTER" to make sure to indicate what I was talking about.  I take exception to your attacking my ability to read, the uncalled for aggression, instead of simply asking for clarification.  I don't attack, and expect the same courtesy.

I have not been in contact with the other teacher, so I don't know how she feels about it.

The "last matter" involves the student's decision to stay with bwl.  That is what I was referring to as per the above.

I have no interest in getting involved in the back and forth about smaller matters that has started here.  I wrote about a different concern, addressing it to Timothy.


- I've been working with a student for the past 9 months or so.
- The student came to me after their previous teacher went on mat leave .....
- I contacted the teacher to ask her how long I'll be working with the student and when she'll be ready to take her on again...
- ... she initially told me sometime in Spring but later extended it to September.

[lostinidlewonder]

I wrote "ABOUT THIS LAST MATTER" to make sure to indicate what I was talking about.  I take exception to your attacking my ability to read, the uncalled for aggression, instead of simply asking for clarification.  I don't attack, and expect the same courtesy.

Oh gosh here we go again making a storm in a teacup. You did not specifiy AT ALL in your response what was not discussed you just said there was no response from the initial teacher. "Last matter" in terms of what tim was responding to me or what? You didn't say, but since tim is responding to me and I know what we are discussing this "last" matter I read as relating to his responses to me nothing else, that is a logical deduction after you decided to insert yourself into our responses.

So be more accurate in what you are saying. Tim was responding to me about 2nd hand information which I disagreed existed with any relevance to my initial response in this thread. Your response to him relates to that, I know what I was talking about, if you are going to say there has been no input from the original teacher towards bwl you are simply wrong. There is no 2nd hand information relevant to anything at all that I responded to in my initial post.

[timothy42b]

Timothy, you are right that there was no response from the original teacher about this last matter.  I've reread the OP a couple of times.

Students are not property to be "returned" or relinquished.  A student is a customer who decides with whom he or she chooses to do business.  This student chose to continue with the OP and that's the end of it. The student's choice.

You are quite right, my phrasing was very bad and made it look like the student was property of a teacher to be fought over like in a divorce. 

I had intended only to say that the OP was correct in reminding the parent of the original plan and was trying not to do anything dishonest in deliberately poaching a student.  But that's not what I said, sorry.  And it's a good reminder.  Teachers don't own students, but often the relationship is a bit more than a simple business arrangement. 

As far as second hand information, we have only the OP (who we take at face value) repeating the parent's statement that the original teacher hand been contacted and no longer had the time slot available.  That may be true, or a face saving way of avoiding awkwardness in choosing to stay with the OP.

Of course LiW did not read for comprehension the first time; not unusual for any of us, I frequently have to re-read the OP's post for what I missed.  That's why I tried to be nonconfrontational in my first comment to him. 

My second comment, okay that was pushing his buttons. I'd known he wouldn't admit any possible error, wondered if he'd just ignore it and move on, but suspected he wouldn't.  I probably should have been more adult here. 

[lostinidlewonder]

As far as second hand information, we have only the OP (who we take at face value) repeating the parent's statement that the original teacher hand been contacted and no longer had the time slot available. 

Yet you thought that the time that the teacher had been away was 2nd hand information when it was not as that was 50% of my initial response to this thread to which you claimed it was all 2nd hand info.

That may be true, or a face saving way of avoiding awkwardness in choosing to stay with the OP.

There is no evidence to suggest it was a lie, in fact one can infer that it is utterly the truth because the previous teacher had a child (being away for maternity leave) and thus obviously doesn't has as much spare time as before to allocate for students so it is totally feasible that weekends were no longer possible. Secondly the student didn't have to say anything at all, a student is not obliged to explain to a teacher why they have asked them for lessons or that they had another teacher and explain why they left and detail it all, there is zero obligation to do this.

I have had transfer students who they tell me they had a teacher before me and they more often than not do not explain why they changed teacher. The fact that BWL was explained this is because the student logically wanted to be courteous and explain that they MIGHT actually go back to the initial teacher when they return so BWL could decide whether to take on the student for the limited time or not. That is courtesy not story telling or making up lies as you want to put it.

Of course LiW did not read for comprehension the first time; not unusual for any of us, I frequently have to re-read the OP's post for what I missed.  That's why I tried to be nonconfrontational in my first comment to him. 

I certainly don't care how you pretend to package your response on here, makes zero difference to me. Your reading comprehension is what the problem is, you think it is 2nd hand information that the student has been away from their initial teacher for 9 months. Your illogical mind also thinks that the student is an utter liar when they say the initial teacher no longer can offer the original time slot too, this just doesn't stand up against the information posted in the OP one iota.

I totally understood what you were on about, my response initially to this thread was utterly simple, you cast a shadow of doubt on it by saying it is 2nd hand information which was illogical and without any evidence but your own private thoughts. I have the initial email information BWL went through demonstrating the teachers absence due to maternity leave was extended, the time which they stated they have been teaching the student. None of this is 2nd hand information you claimed it to be. Again you try to say it was 2nd hand info that the day no longer was possible for the student after the previous teacher returned from maternity leave but that utterly discounts the situation of what it is like having a new baby in the household. So the inference is certainly that the day the student wanted was no longer possible. To say that it is a lie that the student made up a story that they could no longer have the original day with the other teacher is just illogical.

It is as if you want to create some kind of fantasy story where students are liars that need to avoid confrontation. If the student wanted to totally avoid any confrontation they would have just swapped teachers and said nothing at all, but BWL had extra information which makes zero sense to have been given to BWL if the student wanted to be evasive or make up lies to avoid confrontation.

My second comment, okay that was pushing his buttons. I'd known he wouldn't admit any possible error, wondered if he'd just ignore it and move on, but suspected he wouldn't.  I probably should have been more adult here.

I just demonstrate your inability to think logically that is all. You want to assume a student is an utter liar and making up stories, well I rather believe something a lot more logical supported by the information in the OP. If you want to make up stories and create fantasy situations thats up to you, no need to quote me and say what I initially responded was from 2nd hand information when it clearly is not. Just make up your little stories on your own, trying to cast doubt on my quotes will just have it pointed out to you how wrong you are.

1) The student was away from the teacher for 9 months
2) The student no longer could have the day they originally had (which is logical as weekends might be difficult for the previous teacher who now has a new baby in the family)
3) The student was not obliged to give any information to BWL at all about WHY they changed teacher or that they even changed teachers, so it is illogical that they would have made up stories to explain why they changed teachers.

You are not pushing any buttons, this is more like a special Olympics debate you are trying to conjure up which I find funny because now I can poke and prod at it. Now use your normal tactics and cry about the length of my responses, it's pretty much all you have left to do, or maybe just crawl back under your rock lol

[keypeg]

You are quite right, my phrasing was very bad and made it look like the student was property of a teacher to be fought over like in a divorce. 

I had intended only to say that the OP was correct in reminding the parent of the original plan and was trying not to do anything dishonest in deliberately poaching a student.  But that's not what I said, sorry.  And it's a good reminder.  Teachers don't own students, but often the relationship is a bit more than a simple business arrangement. 

Thanks - that's sort of what I thought you meant.  I agree.

Two related thoughts:

- As a student with another instruments I experienced problems which were related to teaching, and the teacher could not solve them.  Another teacher could, and it at least temporarily solved the snags so that I could move forward.  I've often asked myself if I should have changed teachers, gotten the foundations from another teacher, and maybe gone back to the first teacher for interpretation and such.  The thing is that as a student, if there are problems at the teaching end, those lessons are 30 - 60 minutes/ week.  The daily practice struggling with stuff is many hours more.  It costs the student time, nerves, and wellbeing.  If as a student I have a well thought reason for changing teachers, the idea that another good teacher who could help me feels obligated not to "snatch" me - that bothers me.  In the present case there is nothing about poor teaching.  It's a timetable scheduling problem.

A different aspect: In my field I often work freelance for agencies, and their customers.  Some want me to sign a contract that I will never work directly with their clients (whose identity I don't even know most of the time) and there are all kinds of ethical issues involved, including the client's own choice.  I would never knowingly "snatch" a client.  But it's made me sensitive to this whole issue.

[timothy42b]

A different aspect: In my field I often work freelance for agencies, and their customers.  Some want me to sign a contract that I will never work directly with their clients (whose identity I don't even know most of the time) and there are all kinds of ethical issues involved, including the client's own choice.  I would never knowingly "snatch" a client.  But it's made me sensitive to this whole issue.

Yes, that's tricky.  The parallel in piano teaching is that many people start out teaching in a music school, and most of the time there is a noncompete clause in their contract that says they can't take students from the school to their private studio. 

I don't know if that's legally enforceable or not.  But ethically, one probably should not agree to something and not comply with it. 

[bwl_13]

I don't fully understand the discourse taking place above. Regardless, thank you to those that made me feel better about the transfer.

I just want to clarify one thing. I in no way felt obligated to "return" a student to anybody. I feel very uncomfortable with that sort of language which I thought I'd clarified in my post. There is a difference between insecurity of a new teacher and the moral and logical thinking patter they take. I was expressing my insecurity and wanted to be sure it's just insecurity, and to see how other people feel about the matter. I entirely agree that students are people that are autonomous. As a teacher, it's the job to facilitate the best learning environment for the student possible, regardless of whether it's with you.

I've heard of *some* (albeit not very many), teachers of a different philosophy, treating students like assets. Thanks again, I realized I hadn't responded to my thread initially since things have been busy.