Isn't there an easier way?

[geopianoincanada]

To learn piano technique, to learn and practice etudes without the very exhausting and painful experience of trying to sight read with such rotten eyesight?

How do blind people learn piano?

[ranjit]

I would suggest memorizing technical exercises and also developing your ability to play by ear.

[martinn]

Well, I am a beginner and have started with easy material, sight reading should be fun, i.e. easy enough. If it is difficult, there could be that the material should be still easier. My goal is to be proficient in sight reading because, as an older adult, I can not dream about completely memorizing so much any more. Therefore I need sight reading. My eysight is not so good, but optimized glasses help a lot. Think, they have to be optimized for a further distance than for reading a book.

[martinn]

And, sight reading can be a one time chore, allowing me to move quite soon to memorize, and then I just need a glance to refresh my memory, the outline of the notes can be enough, with just a glance.

[geopianoincanada]

Once I have an etude or an exercise in my memory it is easy to repeat it. And I do play well by ear. My piano teacher mentioned that I seem to have perfect pitch.

My difficulty lays in acquiring new material, new etudes which have to be read by the eye. I've always in my later years had difficulty with managing sight reading and it only becomes much more exhausing on my vision as I grow older.

While I can usually figure out melodies by ear and have been doing so for many years, the nature of more complicated chords used in piano music makes reading the chords on paper of greater importance. Yet my eyesight will not relent, will not yield when it comes to reading high contrast detailed material such as this.

A perfect example is reading Sharp signs. I cannot distinguish them from Natural signs, not without a great deal of staring and squinting with glasses on or off. Flat signs are easier because they are rounded. Flats and Sharps are not rounded and that gives me endless trouble.

[brogers70]

I'm not completely clear on what your vision problem is, exactly. Cataracts, macular degeneration, refraction? In any case a couple of things you could try. The focal length for sight reading at the piano is different from that you need for reading a book and for driving. I found it helpful to get a pair of weak reading classes that brought things into focus at a distance of around 2-2.5 feet; cheap ones that you can get at a pharmacy without a prescription. They have made all the difference in the world.

If that's not your problem (meaning that you cannot clear up the vision no matter what lenses you use), then you might try getting a large tablet and downloading scores onto it, which you could then display as large as you want them. You can get a foot-activated page turner to do the larger number of page turns you'd need. And even with all the page turns it may be easier than what you are doing now.

Andres Segovia, the great classical guitarist, was nearly blind during the later years of his career and he learned to memorize the score before picking up his guitar at all. I can't imagine doing that, but I guess it's a learnable skill.

[anacrusis]

Andres Segovia, the great classical guitarist, was nearly blind during the later years of his career and he learned to memorize the score before picking up his guitar at all. I can't imagine doing that, but I guess it's a learnable skill.

That's amazing! There are certainly many anecdotes about pianists learning pieces by studying the score away from the piano, so I certainly think it's a learnable skill. Probably takes a lot of practice and developing your understanding of theory as well.

[geopianoincanada]

My vision is affected by issues related to inflammation of the optic nerves of late. The cause of the inflammation is idiopathic and according to the specialist affects people of all walks and all ages of life at various times.

A tablet, a cellphone or a computer screen is even worse for me as the backlight has a horrible tiring nature on my eyes. Even as I type this I'm staring mostly at the computer keyboard, only glancing up at the screen to search for errors.

The general nature of my vision, if I were to describe what my eyes see? At a basic level? On many computer monitiors there is an adjustment called "Gamma". If you're familiar with this, adjust the "Gamma" on your own monitor so the midrange tones and shades become very exaggerated and at the same time adjust the dark shades and tones so they become virtually black. There is no more linearity in the response of my eyes with respect to the printed sheet music.

Oddly enough I'm perfectly ok for driving in the day as the scenery is moving, is in colour, has very few straight lines. I try to avoid night driving as the glare of oncoming headlights is truly awful.

It's only with computer monitors and sheet music where I encounter such difficulties. I do have prescription glasses specifically made for reading sheet music but the issue which is so tiring has to do with the limited strrength of my optic nerves and no eye glasses will help this.

[martinn]

I didn’t expect the problems to be so severe. But in the beginning of digital music there were midi files that could be translated by a computer to audible sounds. Of course, nowdays there is CD recordings of almost any music written. Just a thoght, if the recordings are obsolete, there could be a way to get digital sheet music and translate those sheets to midi files and then have some listenable sounds. But today even practice and learning music has been played, recorded and uploaded to youtube, for example.

[ranjit]

Normally I wouldn't suggest this, but you could also try to learn from synthesia tutorials online. You can look up whichever piece you want to learn on YouTube + synthesia. Falling notes on a dark background. I don't see any harm in trying it out.

[keypeg]

Age and vision are a reality, and at times we must change our goals to accommodate.  At this time my eyes are extremely different, with the left eye only being able to see clearly from maybe 6 - 8" while the right eye is about 3 - 4' away, but it also has a big blobby spot that moves when I look from left to right, up and down etc.  My last optometrist refused to prescribe mid-range glasses (computer & piano distance) at a precise prescription, saying my brain would get "confused" - the new optometrist risked it.  When I first put these on, I'd first see double, and if I looked from left to right, I saw double again.  Things from the left lens are about half the size of the right lens and the brain has to recallibrate.  Looking from left to right means "tiny keys, giant keys".  Depth vision is likewise compromised.  Not the point of reaching for a cup, hand shoots past the cup, but some piano things, yes.

I'm working on the Rachmaninoff C#m prelude, where the A section comes back at fff, both hands playing the same chords in different inversions, constantly shooting up and down the keyboard..  What I described creates a problem.  My best bet is to take the glasses off, mostly memorize the music, and stare at a blurry keyboard but where the keys are the same size for both eyes.  Hitting the chords in the jumps immediately became more accurate.  I have decided that I'll have to develop proprioception a lot more finely - be able to hit keys with my eyes shut, and much better than I do presently.  If you end up getting "handicapped" then you have to make adjustments.

Otoh, if you have a teacher who thinks "sight reading" is important and needs to develop it, esp. if a young teacher who hasn't had to content with such things - maybe a conversation is in order.  Is she aware of your vision problems?

[ranjit]

Age and vision are a reality, and at times we must change our goals to accommodate.  At this time my eyes are extremely different, with the left eye only being able to see clearly from maybe 6 - 8" while the right eye is about 3 - 4' away

I wonder if contact lenses would at all help with this. But I'm not sure how well contact lenses work when you have high power.

[keypeg]

I wonder if contact lenses would at all help with this. But I'm not sure how well contact lenses work when you have high power.

I'm probably looking at surgery in the future.  No, I don't think I could even wear contacts at this stage.

[lostinidlewonder]

You already asked the question about reading problems.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=69216

Like I said before, go on your computer and magnify the music and print it out then if need be use a strong fresnel lens to again magnify passages you read, if that doesn't work nothing can help you, learn music Braille. I first learned piano by ear and by copying what people did, that took no sheet music, not necessarily an "easy" way for some people it indeed will be harder than studying with sheets. There's a solution for every problem but some people merely stare at their problems.

[keypeg]

OP, you did indeed ask how blind people learn music, so LiW's suggestion of Braille is not that off the mark.  However, learning to read Braille, sensitizing your fingers to the bumps, would be a major task all of its own.  I had a blind friend; her husband was the one who did the dishes in order to preserve the sensitivity in her fingertips.

[geopianoincanada]

Yes I did ask this question once before. I fear that thread grew cold and went silent.

Using a computer monitor or tablet won't work at all due to the harsh backlighting. I can't handle looking at computer or tablet screens for long. Typing my reply, I'm typing from closed-eye touch-typing training on the typewriter keyboard with my eyes shut, glancing only occasionally at the screen for spelling errors.

I tried using a flat sheet lens over my sheet music but unfortunately the edges of the music get cut off. However it's not magnification which is the issue, it's the nature of the high contrast material along with horizontal and vertical lines. This seems to overload my optic system after a little while.

I've known I have issues with dead spots in my field of vision which resemble radiating spokes of a wheel since a 1995 visual field test. It's related to optic nerves and the doctors say it's something I was born with. The brain so swiftly assembles images for safe navigation and living that only highly specific visual tests reveal these dead spots in my field of vision. New blind spots have occurred since 2019 in my field of vision affecting peripheral but not central vision as well as affecting linearity of response to light. It's a lot of fun.

Regarding Braille? Since I don't know Braille at all I'm not sure adding another layer of complex linguisting challenge (learning Braille) on top of reading sheet music (also a form of linguistic challenge) will be as useful as it may appear. I fear it would only slow me even further.

I have discussed all of these issues with my former as well as my present teacher and my present teacher is quite aware of my difficulties as well as my strong and quite precise auditory sense for capturing musical details and melodies. My first teacher was also very much aware of my difficulties.

Today my teacher did recommend "leaning on my ears" to learn pieces, but I don't see how I can possibly "lean on my ears" when it's a brand new material I'm learning from a practice book with no accompanying audio CDs.

Back in the days when I used to moonlight as a "hired gun" bassist in Toronto, learning everything by ear was the only method available as none of the musicians who play the bar scene ever read sheet music and my ears got such a workout.

Approaching classical music piano studies however, well there are surprisingly few resources available for visually challened students. The choice of printed study material here is mainstream for mainly average sighted students.

If my teacher - in her professional capacity - can identify resources which are available and practically structured to help vision-limited students learn by ear, yet still fit clrrectly into the structure of the RCM lesson books, that would be wonderful! I definitely want to know of such resources.

I called the RCM in Toronto if they offer anything for such students as I. They do not. They suggested I contact the CNIB. I did so and the CNIB suggested I contact the RCM. Phone tag.

My teacher and I tried together to look things up on YouTube but it's really a crap shoot even for her. You never know how accurate someone's rendition of any given etude or execise will be and how much technique you can really draw out of it by ear alone. Learning classical piano studies by YouTube is like learning how to cook as a proper chef by watching McDonald's 'chefs' at work.

I likened to my teacher how the reading of sheet music is to reading a road map where the sheet music shows the intricate details along the journey, where fingering must take place in order for chords and melodies to knit each step of the journey successfully.

It's definitely a big challenge, one I didn't expect to encounter and the challenges do seem to be gradually growing for the worse as time goes by.

I have a meeting soon here at home again with someone from the CNIB. They have someone come by at intervals to assess my vision, assess any needs I have to maintain independence to permit me to continue to help my wife and keep my optometerist updated on anything they find out. I've mentioned these issues to them as well and they will assess what means may be available to offer practical help.

If the CNIB does offer a solution which is practical and useful, I may share the solution here as it may help others in a similar predicament.

But I saw no harm in asking the quesion again here especially if perhaps other music students are facing similar struggles and may know of a practical solution which I've not heard of.

As time passes I may ask the same question again if this present posted thread goes cold with no new developments since I know of no where else to ask.

[lostinidlewonder]

I tried using a flat sheet lens over my sheet music but unfortunately the edges of the music get cut off. However it's not magnification which is the issue, it's the nature of the high contrast material along with horizontal and vertical lines. This seems to overload my optic system after a little while.

Print in/on different colours then.

[ranjit]

Print in different colours then.

This actually sounds like a workable solution. You can superimpose another color other than white and/or change the line colors. See if that helps.

Slow down videos to 0.5x on YouTube so you can play them by ear better. You may be able to play melodies solely by ear.

Most classical music uses fairly standard accompaniment styles. Create lead sheets for yourself based on the chords.

Anyway, from what I remember you play at a beginner level. I wouldn't worry too much about getting all the details down until you're at least grade 6 or so which will probably take you several years.

I wouldn't obsess over getting every single note correct. I know classical musicians focus on this, but if you play a Chopin piece 95% correct, but with slightly wrong accompaniment patterns somewhere, who cares? I know I wouldn't notice unless I had literally learned the piece before, and even then I wouldn't care. I improvise slight parts which I forget while playing for friends anyway. They hear 95% of a Chopin etude, they're happy I'm happy lol.

[lostinidlewonder]

The edges getting cut of should pose no issue if you just move the lens, it is not that difficult, or print music so it fits under the lens, cut the sheets up, work with a solution not just say the problem without trying to solve it. Fill in the letters and show direction with arrows if you can't stand reading the lines.

Adjusting the color of the sheets for instance is a simple step to take, why dont you just test printing on green colored paper with the normal black notes? I am not being mean but all I am hearing is negative reactions with nothing that even helps just a tiny bit, all sounds depressing and defeatist. I have some friends who are like that and I slap it out of them lol.

[geopianoincanada]

I've tried the coloured paper printing. It's not a good solution because the contrast with the coloured paper aggrivates the unreadability making the exercise useless. I have tried this with various coloured papers to no avail and my eyesight simply cannot cope with it.

I tried the lens idea as well. The common lens sizes commercially available force undersized printing which when magnified only yields marginal results not much better than leaving the paper unmagnified.

It's not negativitiy. It's truth because it's a very difficult and serious problem. I'm still faced with the loss of eyesight where many others enjoy normal eyesight. If the difficulty posed by this seems negative then there's nothing I can say or can do to change this opinion.

I'm actively looking for a solution with my teacher as well and so far none of the easier ideas suggested here are working. Even the musical authorities and eyesight authorities here seem to have totally dropped the ball on this issue which I'm sure I do not experience alone, there must be many others who have such issues.

[lorcar]

take the glasses off, mostly memorize the music, and stare at a blurry keyboard but where the keys are the same size for both eyes.  Hitting the chords in the jumps immediately became more accurate.  I have decided that I'll have to develop proprioception a lot more finely 

that's a very interesting comment. With the practice i do develope -like everyone else i guess- good muscular memory, which fades away very easily as I stop practicing that exact piece. So i have always been very skeptical about muscular memory. And in general about my capacity to memorize a piece: I am currently learning the Bach Invention 13 in a minor, and while i can play it almost without looking at the score, there is no way i can tell you the names of the notes I am playing. I mean, i can visualize my hands on the keyboard and tell you right now which are the first two notes, however when I am playing and hit the wrong note I am NOT able to say "well i hit the C should have been the D instead": the muscular memory forces me to do the right movement, bring the hand in the right space of the keyboard, however I am not able to "sing the piece". I have always been struggling with this issue, with the LACK OF METHOD to really learn a piece. In general, i am forced to think that to really learn a piece you should also study harmony, so that you know WHY that exact note should follow the note you are playing. In general, I am always impressed by professional musicians, that can play a 50m long sonata knowing which note follows each other. For all the reasons above, playing has always been a big source of frustration. True, I play just recreationally and within a very busy life, a C-level job, a family, etc, however I have never met (nor read here in this forum) which is the METHOD that is considered the best (or among the best) to learn a piece, memorize it, and learn to play piano instead of learning to play a specific composition put on a piece of paper.

[martinn]

that's a very interesting comment. With the practice i do develope -like everyone else i guess- good muscular memory, which fades away very easily as I stop practicing that exact piece. So i have always been very skeptical about muscular memory. And in general about my capacity to memorize a piece: I am currently learning the Bach Invention 13 in a minor, and while i can play it almost without looking at the score, there is no way i can tell you the names of the notes I am playing. I mean, i can visualize my hands on the keyboard and tell you right now which are the first two notes, however when I am playing and hit the wrong note I am NOT able to say "well i hit the C should have been the D instead": the muscular memory forces me to do the right movement, bring the hand in the right space of the keyboard, however I am not able to "sing the piece". I have always been struggling with this issue, with the LACK OF METHOD to really learn a piece. In general, i am forced to think that to really learn a piece you should also study harmony, so that you know WHY that exact note should follow the note you are playing. In general, I am always impressed by professional musicians, that can play a 50m long sonata knowing which note follows each other. For all the reasons above, playing has always been a big source of frustration. True, I play just recreationally and within a very busy life, a C-level job, a family, etc, however I have never met (nor read here in this forum) which is the METHOD that is considered the best (or among the best) to learn a piece, memorize it, and learn to play piano instead of learning to play a specific composition put on a piece of paper.

I can feel that as well, although I am more a beginner. Sounds familiar. But I think the METHOD is so individual and sometimes have to be adapted to the music played, not only the performer.

Have you read this book ? https://pianopractice.org/ (should probably be http) Sorry for the forum link conversion.

[ranjit]

that's a very interesting comment. With the practice i do develope -like everyone else i guess- good muscular memory, which fades away very easily as I stop practicing that exact piece. So i have always been very skeptical about muscular memory. And in general about my capacity to memorize a piece: I am currently learning the Bach Invention 13 in a minor, and while i can play it almost without looking at the score, there is no way i can tell you the names of the notes I am playing. I mean, i can visualize my hands on the keyboard and tell you right now which are the first two notes, however when I am playing and hit the wrong note I am NOT able to say "well i hit the C should have been the D instead": the muscular memory forces me to do the right movement, bring the hand in the right space of the keyboard, however I am not able to "sing the piece". I have always been struggling with this issue, with the LACK OF METHOD to really learn a piece. In general, i am forced to think that to really learn a piece you should also study harmony, so that you know WHY that exact note should follow the note you are playing. In general, I am always impressed by professional musicians, that can play a 50m long sonata knowing which note follows each other. For all the reasons above, playing has always been a big source of frustration. True, I play just recreationally and within a very busy life, a C-level job, a family, etc, however I have never met (nor read here in this forum) which is the METHOD that is considered the best (or among the best) to learn a piece, memorize it, and learn to play piano instead of learning to play a specific composition put on a piece of paper.

Try doing a search on the forum. Bernhard's 7x20 method is very effective.

[lostinidlewonder]

I've tried the coloured paper printing. It's not a good solution because the contrast with the coloured paper aggrivates the unreadability making the exercise useless. I have tried this with various coloured papers to no avail and my eyesight simply cannot cope with it.

So no color combination at all helps absolutely all have contrast issues with your vision and none are better than the other they all are totally bad and you have tested heaps of combinations? So you can no longer distinguish colors by the looks of it. How on earth are you driving a car??

It's not negativitiy. It's truth because it's a very difficult and serious problem. I'm still faced with the loss of eyesight where many others enjoy normal eyesight. If the difficulty posed by this seems negative then there's nothing I can say or can do to change this opinion

Well you are saying you absolutely cannot read any sheet music no matter what color combinations you use and no matter how magnified it is. I remember suggesting enlarge the music and print it off a while back and your response was something along the lines of that it is too troublesome to actually do. Personally I don't believe you can't see a super magnified bar, if one bar fills an entire page. If so you are simply blind and asking people here for some kind of miracle for you to read sheets. Deal with your swollen optic nerve seems the best solution, most likely it is something that will heal unless you have a more serious underlying condition. Seek better medical advice on that one.

How do you read words here on piano street, how do you type here on piano street? Are you going to say it is all done via voice? If you can read words on the screen I don't see why you can't read sheet music or write in the letters of the notes since you seem to read posts on the internet fine.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

This may or may not be useful, but your problem sounds similar to something a pianist friend of mine has had trouble with. Have you looked into Irlen syndrome?

[keypeg]

various bits

(earlier post)

.....I am not being mean but all I am hearing is negative reactions with nothing that even helps just a tiny bit, all sounds depressing and defeatist.

   

To the OP - You may think it's easy for everyone here, and that we don't have moments of feeling defeated, struggling and seeming to get nowhere - we just don't talk about it.  In this way, negativity can be offputting.  In your original thread about this, I don't remember much of "thanks, I'll try this".  A thing one hears from teacher who have taught regularly for a longer time, is that they frequently get students (esp. ones who are not children) who immediately say "This won't work.", try for 3 seconds listlessy and say "It doesn't work." or "I won't try this.", complain further about how hard it is - and a teacher will read the same behaviour into responses by those asking (for their free help).  Thus you can get "attitude" and a reaction.

At the same time, those who have not yet had to contend with age, can't quite imagine the reality.

So to LiW.

So you can no longer distinguish colors by the looks of it. How on earth are you driving a car??

The OP did not write that he cannot distinguish colours.  He wrote that trying the method via colours didn't work.  I  anticipated that when I first read the suggestion.  You don't need to read symbols printed on a traffic light; you just have to see whether red, yellow, or green are on.  for the colourblind: top, middle or bottom being brighter.

I remember suggesting enlarge the music and print it off a while back and your response was something along the lines of that it is too troublesome to actually do. Personally I don't believe you can't see a super magnified bar, if one bar fills an entire page.

Without going back to the other thread, I don't remember seeing much of a response to that suggestion either.  That may be why I didn't get involved in the old thread.

That said, super magnification to the point of a single bar on a page seems impractical for sight reading.  It would take forever.  But if combined with memorizing, understanding and seeing patterns, maybe jotting things down in a different way, it could be one way in.  I worked with the massive chords of the Rach C#m prelude and after a first reading, I made a point of knowing which chords they were, in which inversion and I only look back at the score to check.

Deal with your swollen optic nerve seems the best solution, most likely it is something that will heal unless you have a more serious underlying condition. Seek better medical advice on that one.

I'm reading this from the POV of where I'm at myself, where what's happening with my eye (I'm told it's a cataract, I have some reasons to doubt) is a matter of surgery.  I was shocked when my former optometrist told me my brain "could not handle" an optimum prescription, and for the first time in my life, experience it to almost be true - where it turned to double vision until the brain "retrained".  When we are "not yet old", we rely on all our senses and physical system, and just assume it will always be there.  We switch around, try this and that, and have variable things to switch to and suddenly that landscape changes.

In my case I switched optometrists.  I understand that in the OP's case, this is a gradually degenerating condition. (may be wrong)  I told my story and the decision to start aiming more toward proprioception and memory, because alternatives to reading - with reading playing less of a role and being supplemented by other skills, is probably the answer.

How do you read words here on piano street, how do you type here on piano street? Are you going to say it is all done via voice? If you can read words on the screen I don't see why you can't read sheet music or write in the letters of the notes since you seem to read posts on the internet fine.

I can answer that one for my own situation - and there may be some new ideas for the OP.  This site with its white on black is far from ideal.  The thing with words created out of the alphabet, we don't need to see details.  We're not reading every letter, and we're not following the details of each shape.  In fact, we probably don't read every word, because we anticipate how the sentence will go.  Also, your eyes stay fixed in one region.  You don't have to look up and down at any time.

But a segue to this going back to reading music - the anticipation part - If you get a decent understanding of musical form and grammar, you can also anticipate there.  For example: sharp vs. natural sign ---- and I've had trouble visually with this as well depending on the music ---- If you understand music, you'll often know which sign it is likely to be.  So a study and application of music theory, in a practical way, might be a strategy to explore.

On this last point, the teacher should be involved.  For example, if an etude is assigned: my impression of etudes is that they tend to be more predictable in nature, so that one doesn't have to look at every note and accidental in detail.  A teacher can point out these patterns and propose strategies.  If the teacher is young and inexperienced in teaching (if) she may need to be asked such things.

[keypeg]

To Geopianoincanada

I don't think I saw a reply to my post addressed to you.   As a fellow Canuck, we're supposed to be known for being overly polite.

[keypeg]

(my post) ... take the glasses off, mostly memorize the music, and stare at a blurry keyboard but where the keys are the same size for both eyes.  Hitting the chords in the jumps immediately became more accurate.  I have decided that I'll have to develop proprioception a lot more finely 
that's a very interesting comment. With the practice i do develope -like everyone else i guess- good muscular memory, which fades away very easily as I stop practicing that exact piece. So i have always been very skeptical about muscular memory. And in general about my capacity to memorize a piece: I am currently learning the Bach Invention 13 in a minor, and while i can play it almost without looking at the score, there is no way i can tell you the names of the notes I am playing........

The context of what you quoted is that at present I'm contending with a loss of depth vision plus a big floater that jumps around when I look left and right as an added distraction.  I'm working on a passage with massive 4 note chords in both hands that constantly jump up and down (Rach C#m prelude, when the theme comes back) - that visual situation became a problem for this bit of music.

You're looking at what I wrote from the POV of where you're at.  You wrote of muscle memory, and about having a method that is more than just getting the music in your hands via muscle memory.  Unpacking:

By proprioception, (for myself) I meant getting a feel in 3D space for an octave, 2 octaves, various distances for leaps, to make these leaps more accurate.  I have the CD and book by Seymour Fink.  In a small section he suggests getting that kind of feel, and has a sequential exercise.  I think he works in spans of a tritone, the tritone being precisely half of an octave.  I have a weak sense of "myself in space" anyway and have worked with proprioception in various ways for other reasons.  This is not the same as muscle memory from repeats of a specific chord or series of notes.

Re: method - you want to have a number of things in your toolbox.  A "practical music theory" of some kind; i.e. not being able to write out names of chords and degrees on a sheet of paper and shove dots around on the page - if you do do go for formal theory, make sure you can apply it practically to your music.

Using what I've been working on as an example: - I have this scan in Dropbox from when I was working on a part - this is what the music looks like.  There are 4 staves for the two hands.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8wusrnn8dazvrwu/RachChord.jpg?dl=0

Among methodology: I know what these chords are as chords.  Each hand plays the same chord in a different inversion.  You can go by Roman Numeral degrees, or you can tell yourself the first chord is C#m.  I went away from the piece, and practised playing the chords involved in octaves , in inversions (like C#m, C#m/E, C#m/G# etc. up and down), same inversions in each hand - then a different inversion in the two hands as per the music.

So when I went back to the music, I had the chords themselves "well in hand", and also knew what the chords were.  I also understand the structure of the music, the theme that gets pounded out on the lower of each pair of staves.  m. 50 & 51 are a diatonic sequence - chords belonging to the key that go up and down a regular pattern ending in a cadence that goes straight back to the beginning.

Another thing visually is that the chords in  m. 46 - 47 are identical.  I know of this before starting to work on the piece.  I can recognize the cadence where it happens.  I can recognize an inversion because it's like an "interrupted snowman".

These are all things I use.  Part of the "methodology" was also acquiring some of the knowledge I use.  A simplistic thing I adopted was getting to know major and minor chords by "colour" - whites are C, F, G - bl.w.bl. = Db, Eb, Ab etc.  If someone says Ab, I see the bl.w.bl. and which one.  Working with inversions; exploring the chords various ways.  Ebm is "all black".

In that particular excerpt I put a square around the two half diminished chords, exploring with my teacher various angles and ways of making these solid.  In the various ways of "seeing" this chord, in m. 49 the little note "D#7 to G#" held in it the fact that the previous chord is "almost" D#7 if only the G# were G (Fx in the score) which slips up to the D#7.  the D#7 is a no-brainer since it's a logical cadence.

I wrote all this out as a concrete illustration of the ideas.  There's a fair bit of "practical theory".  If you're weak in some aspect (I had not done much of whole series of octave-spanning chords), then you segue to that weakness.  As you go along in your musical journey you keep an eye out for "I don't know this thing.  I should get a handle on the thing I don't know. And what is involved in 'this thing'?"

Is any of this at all helpful?

[lostinidlewonder]

At the same time, those who have not yet had to contend with age, can't quite imagine the reality.

You don't have to personally experience something to imagine a reality.

The OP did not write that he cannot distinguish colours.  He wrote that trying the method via colours didn't work. 

Which is illogical unless he cannot distinguish colors. If you know about inflammed optic nerves one symptom can be a distorted ability to recognise colors. So if absolutely no colors are able to change the situation and no enlargement of the sheets help then what solution is there? The OP obviously can read words on pianostreet well enough so why not write in the letters and finger numbers?

You don't need to read symbols printed on a traffic light; you just have to see whether red, yellow, or green are on.  for the colourblind: top, middle or bottom being brighter.

Gosh, in Australia you MUST be able to read symbols on any traffic sign otherwise you are not allowed to drive. In fact I would be afraid to drive around anyone who can't actually see properly and is still driving.

That said, super magnification to the point of a single bar on a page seems impractical for sight reading.

It was an overexaggeration to print one bar per page. The OP suggested in the past that enlarging the sheet musis was a lot of work which in my mind was merely a defeatist attitude coming into play again. Why not print one bar per page if necessary, it's better than saying nothing works and having zero.

I understand that in the OP's case, this is a gradually degenerating condition. (may be wrong)

I did a quick read about inflammed optic nerves and it is more often than not a reversible condition.

The thing with words created out of the alphabet, we don't need to see details.  We're not reading every letter, and we're not following the details of each shape.  In fact, we probably don't read every word, because we anticipate how the sentence will go.  Also, your eyes stay fixed in one region.  You don't have to look up and down at any time.

This still does not explain how the OP can read words on pianostreet but is unable to deal with reading actual sheet music. There is no problem with solving a note at a time and writing down note and finger number solutions. The OP however seems to want some magical solution given that they are saying ALL color combinations of printed sheet and note color have contrast issues and no amount of magnifcation helps at all. They certainly will help in some manner but all we are getting is that they are all a flat zero help.

[keypeg]

Interested in lorcar's response to mine, since that might actually be helpful. I prefer things that might lead somewhere.

[lorcar]

Interested in lorcar's response to mine, since that might actually be helpful. I prefer things that might lead somewhere.

hi Keypeg and thank you very much for your considerate and long response. To be honest, it is clear that we are at a very different point in our musical journey, you being too far from me! I am still playing with the first Schumann and Bach, and I know for a fact that in my life I will never play Rachmaninoff.
I have lack of knowledge of harmony/theory, so I am not able to spot chords. However I guess I see your point, and perhaps it reinforces my point, i.e. that traditional methods (at least for the first few years) do not bring where you are, and you get there only after more years and a serious (i.e. almost professional) musical path.

As far as the proprioception: I do not see (no pun intended here!) how what you write is -in this specific context- different from muscular memory. I fully respect the reasoning if we are talking about muscles rehab. However in our case (the exact finger hitting the right note) seems a bit different, and too very similar to muscle memory: "getting a feel ... for...various distances for leaps, to make these leaps more accurate." if you read again what I had written, it is almost the same thing ("the muscular memory forces me to do the right movement, bring the hand in the right space of the keyboard").
Perhaps I am not fully understanding your point (please consider I am not native english speaker).
What I find that really helps me is 1) be fully focused (i really mean it, 110% focused. And this works only when the number of repetitions is low, otherwise boredom prevails); 2) try to anticipate the sound: i.e. "create" the music before you hit the keys: when i am able to "activate this mode" :-) my failure rate is lower, in spite of not having the absolute pitch myself. (the difference is like the difference between standing in front of your stereo and you wave your arms pretending to lead the orchestra (usually the movement follows the music), or instead stand on the podium and really lead the orchestra and extract the sound, i.e. the music follows your thought. )

[lostinidlewonder]

Interested in lorcar's response to mine, since that might actually be helpful. I prefer things that might lead somewhere.

My comment and questions are to the op but you decided to answer it with your own answers which doesn't really lead somewhere useful since it is the op with the problem that needs discussion. Wonder what happened to Canuck politeness?

[keypeg]

.

My comment and questions are to the op but you decided to answer it with your own answers which doesn't really lead somewhere useful since it is the op with the problem that needs discussion

Lorcar asked me a question about something I wrote to the OP so I answered his question.  This has nothing to do with your post.  More than one person can give responses to a question in a thread, and it is normal to respond to ensuing questions from anyone.

[keypeg]

hi Keypeg and thank you very much for your considerate and long response. To be honest, it is clear that we are at a very different point in our musical journey, you being too far from me! I am still playing with the first Schumann and Bach, and I know for a fact that in my life I will never play Rachmaninoff.
I have lack of knowledge of harmony/theory, so I am not able to spot chords. However I guess I see your point, and perhaps it reinforces my point, i.e. that traditional methods (at least for the first few years) do not bring where you are, and you get there only after more years and a serious (i.e. almost professional) musical path.

I am hardly professional or even semi-professional.  I think that I was trying to give an overall picture of approaching from more than one angle.  If you don't have a grasp of chords, you can work toward having that. The same for any other aspect of theory or of music.  Getting a grasp of chords also includes playing them, observing what you're playing and so on.  In this way you have a whole set of tools that you can start using and combining.

I think this was the main idea.

[lostinidlewonder]

.
Lorcar asked me a question about something I wrote to the OP so I answered his question.  This has nothing to do with your post.  More than one person can give responses to a question in a thread, and it is normal to respond to ensuing questions from anyone.

You literally quoted my numerous questions and statements to which I responded then you did not even reply to those and instead wrote "I prefer things that might lead somewhere." There was absolutely no need to write this.

Well you should realize I asked him a question and you tried to answer all of my questions as if you knew his personal situation. I am not going to point out all of your remarks (believe me I can easily highlight it all) but you didn't even bother responding to them and instead had some remark again  about only dealing with posts which will be helpful and might lead somewhere. You might have politeness in your culture (which I don't really notice here), I have holding people accountable for what they are doing in my blood.

[keypeg]

My "might lead somewhere" had nothing whatsoever to do with your post  - which I have not yet figured out how to answer.  I felt that perhaps lorcar might act on ideas he had asked about (hence "might lead somewhere).

[lostinidlewonder]

My "might lead somewhere" had nothing whatsoever to do with your post  - which I have not yet figured out how to answer.  I felt that perhaps lorcar might act on ideas he had asked about (hence "might lead somewhere).

You said "prefer" too which means that you have made it an option to answer a post which you prefer will lead somewhere and then there are posts you believe do anything but that. Why bother saying you prefer to respond to something? What else is there that you don't prefer to answer and that will not go somewhere? No use pretending it had nothing to do with my post because the language you use is quite obvious.

[keypeg]

Answer to the OP don't seem to lead anywhere.  In fact, the OP has not responded to my post at all.  Lorcar responded to my post to the OP, was interested in what I had written, and asked more questions.  So Lorcar acted on it, at least by reading it and acknowledging it.  I prefer answering or trying to help when something might come of it - that can be as little as the person reading and answering.  If they try out ideas or ask questions, all the better.  I switched gears for that reason.

It is highly unpleasant when a discussion switches to people's choices in writing, interpreting those and so forth, and away from the topic.  In some forums, such things get removed by mods.  It often totally destroys a thread.  I will not say more about this, nor respond to more on that topic.

[keypeg]

To LiW on the original post -- which I would have answered earlier had the other stuff not come up.  I'll only go to one thing, because it seems silly for either of us to waste our energies unless there is equal effort.  It's also why I switched gears.

Gosh, in Australia you MUST be able to read symbols on any traffic sign otherwise you are not allowed to drive.

I wrote about traffic LIGHTS - the red, yellow, green at street corners.  It was about being colourblind or not.  And even if you are colourblind, you can see whether the top, middle, or bottom light has become brighter.  It was not about reading symbols on a sign.

It was an overexaggeration to print one bar per page. 

Thank you for explaining.  That, and "learn braille" seemed impractical, and I wasn't sure if it wasn't meant to be sarcastic.  One bar per page would not be practical either for that matter.

I think because I'm facing eyesight problems and possible deterioration, a possibly flippant "learn braille" and such, had a reaction - but I also haven't come in asking for solutions.

The OP however seems to want some magical solution ......... but all we are getting is that they are all a flat zero help.

That's the nub of it.  And it is probably why I switched over to Lorcar's question.

The actual solution would probably be to circumvent reading to a great extent.  Well, I gave the suggestion and got zero response.  We should not waste our time.

[lostinidlewonder]

I wrote about traffic LIGHTS - the red, yellow, green at street corners.

You still need to recognise arrows.

It was about being colourblind or not.  And even if you are colourblind, you can see whether the top, middle, or bottom light has become brighter.  It was not about reading symbols on a sign.

Again you persist to fail and read about the OPs condition which can include lack of seeing colors clearly. I didn't talk about color blindness at all which is a totally different condition.

Thank you for explaining.

It has a point also, overexaggerations to see if it stll would help or not then you can tone it down from there.

That, and "learn braille" seemed impractical, and I wasn't sure if it wasn't meant to be sarcastic.

What the heck has sarcasm got to do with it? In any case none of this was actually directed to you but you have decided to take over the thread and answer questions which were asked of the OP.

One bar per page would not be practical either for that matter.

It depends on the situation, if it allows one to actually finally read music then there is no problems with that or do you claim that being able to do a big fat zero is better?

I think because I'm facing eyesight problems and possible deterioration, a possibly flippant "learn braille" and such, had a reaction - but I also haven't come in asking for solutions.

What has "flippant" got to do with anything that I wrote? You are using terms such as "sarcastic' and "flippant" to describe my writing, I think you should just keep those thoughts to yourself because you have nothing to back yourself up on that one.

That's the nub of it.  And it is probably why I switched over to Lorcar's question.

No you "preferred" to discuss something that will go somewhere as opposed to things which will go nowhere. That is a rather negative persective. 

The actual solution would probably be to circumvent reading to a great extent.  Well, I gave the suggestion and got zero response.  We should not waste our time.

Well I will waste my time wherever I want, the OP is unable to answer questions I asked of them (which you thought was a good idea to answer for yourself even though it wasn't asked of you) so looks like there will be no more discussion on the matter until they do.

[keypeg]

LiW, I probably should not have responded to the post you addressed to the OP.  I am used to group brainstorming because of another forum I'm in where we do that.  In the meantime, a back and forth about who should have written what, or not, is useless to everyone.  We should really move back on to the topic.

[lostinidlewonder]

I think it's fine to point out how interactions take place and whether one feels if they were necessary or not. It is not super important but the thread to me doesn't have much else content until the op answer my questions.

[keypeg]

Thank you for explaining.

[keypeg]

(I first note: to spare your eyes you can copy this text to a place like Word and use the "read aloud" feature.  I do.)

I likened to my teacher how the reading of sheet music is to reading a road map where the sheet music shows the intricate details along the journey, where fingering must take place in order for chords and melodies to knit each step of the journey successfully.

Let's look at this differently - and I really would like a response this time round.

You have the RCM system - which I'm familiar with from the view violin days, it's the same setup for all instruments - you have a change of teachers with whom you are going along RCM now as before, so she is "going through the material" with you in some manner - and her "solution" is that as your eyes get worse, the material gets more complicated, you should use your ear more.  Obviously, as you point out, you cannot use your ear for new material.

"intricate details where.... fingering ......"

Yes, fingering is important.  But I'm wondering how much you have taught that would lessen that reliance.  Have you learned how to work out fingering?  Do you understand theory in a practical way, so as to anticipate aspects of music?  I know that theory is part of the RCM program, but it can become an isolated separate thing.  There may be skills or approaches you've not been given, that would lessen the problem. How are things at that end?

For the visual thing where you do need to see details in the music, Lostinidlewonder made a good suggestion: namely, writing in things in the score.  In fact, I've done some of that myself, such as a big fat natural sign at a size that I can see.  I have, and use a magnifying glass for the first look-through.  If the score is on-screen, I can also "zoom in" (and yes, to the size where a measure fills the whole screen) and "zoom out" again.  An anti-glare filter may help.  An IT person (or young family whizz) might help you create eye-friendly settings.

Since you have a teacher: what is to stop her from writing in things you cannot see in pen or pencil (such as that natural sign)?  Do you know about musical form - to look for how something might repeat in another key, come back again - what the logical chord progression is?  If not, your teacher should be able to give you those road maps, and also teach you to find them yourself.

I'm frustrated myself about the state of my eyes, the fact that for practical purposes I've lost depth vision, and am working on a piece that has continual jumps over octaves  -  most of us have obstacles great or small.  You also have to be open to new ways of doing things, abandoning what you're trying to do in favour of something else that will get you there.  And if your new teacher's only solution is to "use your ears" I'm not sure what to say.

The RCM material is not a method book.  it does not say how to learn.  It gives material, and the rest is left out.

[geopianoincanada]

(I first note: to spare your eyes you can copy this text to a place like Word and use the "read aloud" feature.  I do.)
Let's look at this differently - and I really would like a response this time round.

You have the RCM system - which I'm familiar with from the view violin days, it's the same setup for all instruments - you have a change of teachers with whom you are going along RCM now as before, so she is "going through the material" with you in some manner - and her "solution" is that as your eyes get worse, the material gets more complicated, you should use your ear more.  Obviously, as you point out, you cannot use your ear for new material.

"intricate details where.... fingering ......"

Yes, fingering is important.  But I'm wondering how much you have taught that would lessen that reliance.  Have you learned how to work out fingering?  Do you understand theory in a practical way, so as to anticipate aspects of music?  I know that theory is part of the RCM program, but it can become an isolated separate thing.  There may be skills or approaches you've not been given, that would lessen the problem. How are things at that end?

For the visual thing where you do need to see details in the music, Lostinidlewonder made a good suggestion: namely, writing in things in the score.  In fact, I've done some of that myself, such as a big fat natural sign at a size that I can see.  I have, and use a magnifying glass for the first look-through.  If the score is on-screen, I can also "zoom in" (and yes, to the size where a measure fills the whole screen) and "zoom out" again.  An anti-glare filter may help.  An IT person (or young family whizz) might help you create eye-friendly settings.

Since you have a teacher: what is to stop her from writing in things you cannot see in pen or pencil (such as that natural sign)?  Do you know about musical form - to look for how something might repeat in another key, come back again - what the logical chord progression is?  If not, your teacher should be able to give you those road maps, and also teach you to find them yourself.

I'm frustrated myself about the state of my eyes, the fact that for practical purposes I've lost depth vision, and am working on a piece that has continual jumps over octaves  -  most of us have obstacles great or small.  You also have to be open to new ways of doing things, abandoning what you're trying to do in favour of something else that will get you there.  And if your new teacher's only solution is to "use your ears" I'm not sure what to say.

The RCM material is not a method book.  it does not say how to learn.  It gives material, and the rest is left out.

My sheet music has a LOT of scribbles to try to help guide me through the path. My first teacher and now my second teacher have both added their own scribbles.

During today's practice my right eye went completely haywire on me and everything appeared as thought I was crosseyed. I had to halt and shut my eyes and rest for a few hours. I've been trying to stretch my sessions from 30 minutes to an hour or more in the mornings but it seems I have good days and bad days where my eyes just won't cooperate but it's only high contrast which triggers it, not normal life scenes which don't bother me at all. Even the high contrast appearance of the piano keyboard (white keys/black keys) can be difficult to manage when my eyes get bad.

I have a visit due soon from the CNIB, hopefully they can suggest something.

[keypeg]

My sheet music has a LOT of scribbles to try to help guide me through the path. My first teacher and now my second teacher have both added their own scribbles.

Good - so that is already being done.

During today's practice my right eye went completely haywire on me and everything appeared as thought I was crosseyed. I had to halt and shut my eyes and rest for a few hours.

Not that our visual glitches are anything the same, but I've experienced seeing double.  For my situation, one eye has become extremely short sighted (a few inches within a narrow range), the other can see clearly 2 - 4 feet away.  I was told corrective glasses for the piano-vision / computer-work vision would not work if corrected accurately - my "brain would get confused".  I wanted to risk it anyway, and changed to an optometrist who would give me that prescription.  Well, first time, I saw double and got dizzy to the point of nausea.  After that I could 'train the brain', and have the habit of closing my eyes when I put the glasses on, and opening them again.

My case is not at all your case.  However, the shock is to no longer have ordinary control of your senses as you once had, and knowing that in theory, with age there is deterioration.  This seeing double was quite disturbing the first time it happened.

......  but it's only high contrast which triggers it, not normal life scenes which don't bother me at all. Even the high contrast appearance of the piano keyboard (white keys/black keys) can be difficult to manage when my eyes get bad.

I have a visit due soon from the CNIB, hopefully they can suggest something.

Here seeing specialists including the CNIB is a good move.  For the contrast, I'm also thinking about something like polarized glasses (through an optician / optometrist).  In fact, I have a pair and they do relax my eyes.  It is a physical sensation.

Wishing you the best of luck in the solutions you come up with.

[lamp77]

have you found something that works?  please let us know, be blessed.