Fast track for an adult ?

[martinn]

I wonder if there is sense in doing a lot of different music briefly in initial grades or in general when aiming for fast development of skills, and sight reading ? And then leaving the lot not so polished and certainly not up to performance standard. How to advance fast(est) through grades and difficulties for an adult with perhaps vaning ability to memorize as permanently as younger ? Hmm, just wondering if doing a lot is effective ?

[anacrusis]

These things are not mutually exclusive. Learn a lot of music that you can play well enough that it's easy to make it polished. If you are struggling to make everything you play up to performance standard you are playing too difficult pieces and/or need help with your technique. But it's also useful to play some things that are hard so that you can't polish it but it challenges you, giving you an avenue to build skills. So mix things that are easy enough that you don't need to work a sweat to polish it, and things that are difficult so you can't master it, but that you work on and then drop.

This is just in my opinion so I hope more experienced teachers here weigh in.

[martinn]

These things are not mutually exclusive. Learn a lot of music that you can play well enough that it's easy to make it polished. If you are struggling to make everything you play up to performance standard you are playing too difficult pieces and/or need help with your technique. But it's also useful to play some things that are hard so that you can't polish it but it challenges you, giving you an avenue to build skills. So mix things that are easy enough that you don't need to work a sweat to polish it, and things that are difficult so you can't master it, but that you work on and then drop.

This is just in my opinion so I hope more experienced teachers here weigh in.

Thanks, I wanted some opinions, just like that.

[goethefan69420]

I started at 21 during Covid, I'm 22 now turning 23 in January.

My rep as of now is
Chopin Prelude 28 C Minor (can play well with tons of freedom)
Chopin Prelude 28 no 7 (I can play it very wel with tons of freedom)
Bach Prelude in C (very well with freedom)
Tchaik Italian Folk Song and Neopolitan Song
Beethoven Sonatina 2nd mvmnt
Minuet in G Bach
Air Purcell
Clementi Sonatina mvmnt 1
some czerny op 299 (can also transpose them)
then tons of other pieces I've gotten like 80-90% polished, I can sightread basically anna magdalena or just easy pieces, pop songs, and other stuff.

Then what I'm working on and definitely good enough to play is these pieces: WTC1 Prelude in C Minor, Scriabin Prelude in A minor from op 11, and Chopin Valse 69 1 (B, C section have all notes learned, A fully polished).


I can explain how I did this, and I could have DEFINITELY done this faster, I was mostly self-taught and I did have some lessons with teachers, but I have never had a consistent teacher.

I played tons of scales when I first started out, because, I couldn't read music and knew fundamentals are important. Everyday I've practiced my scales for a while since I started, some days I would practice them for hours. I also do a lot of improvisation and random stuff, my improv is somewhat incoherent, but, as of late when I use my brain I can compose little motifs for minuets and stuff like that.

So scales, and improvisation is work that I would consider kind of just braindead work, mostly just playing around with playing scales in diff rhythms dynamics in diff hands, and doing all kinds of stuff like that. Or improv off scales by adding octaves in bassline or stuff like that. Never really was coherent theory wise, but, I was just doing this mechanically so I can get more accustomed and freedom feeling at instrument.

Then, for rep, I overthought a lot of stuff, and was really lost and still SOMEWHAT am, but, I am doing pretty good now. But, I would recommend you start with a method book and complete this as fast as possible and count every note out loud. This will be your hard practice and your main FOCUSing work at the piano, then the easy practice will be scales, arpeggios. octaves, chords, improvisation, etc. find exercises that work for you like Hanon and Czerny eventually. I would recommend Czerny op 299 FIRST then I tried Hanon about a month or two ago and it has greatly leveled up my technique and sightreading, but, I wouldn't do it until you are very comfortable and understand the basics of rotation, and alignment at the instrument, how to play scales properly, there is tons of great resources on youtube.

After you finish the method book, you should move on to anna magdalena, easy mozart minuets k1-k5, beethoven sonatina/ecossisae easier pieces, tchaik kids album, and all that kind of stuff...

BUT, THEN ONCE YOU GET TO THIS POINT AS WELL DO NOT FALL INTO THE TRAP THAT MOST ADULT BEGINNERS DO WHERE THEY ONLY FOLLOW THIS GRADUAL APPROACH... AT THIS POINT YOU SHOULD BE PLAYING STILL ALL THE STUFF THAT YOU LEARNED FRMO THE METHOD BOOK, YOU SHOULD PLAY YOUR METHOD BOOK ALMOST ONCE A DAY, AND BY THE TIME YOU CAN PLAY THIS STUFF, THE METHOD BOOK YOU WILL PLAY WITH GREAT FUN AND COMPLETE CONTROL AND FREEDOM, STILL COUNT OUT LOUD ON METHOD BOOK, AND ALWAYS TRY TO KEEP COUNT...

ANYWAYS, THE IMPORTANT POINT IS THIS... ONCE YOU GET PAST METHOD BOOK, EXERCISES, MAKE SURE YOU ALSO PRACTICE STUFF THAT IS WAY PAST YOUR LEVEL AS WELL CHOPIN WALTZES/MAZURKAS/ETUDES, BACH WTC, BEETHOVEN SONATAS, MOZART SONATAS, EVEN MODERN STUFF THATS VERY CHROMATIC IS GOOD!


So to make it more coherent...

When your mind is fresh, you should try something hard that is way past your level for a bit, maybe 5-10 minutes, then go to your rep that is comfortable for you (AMB, Mozart Minuets), and then when you start to lose focus or are getting bored with this kind of rep. Start practicing scales, you can also practice scales for a bit as a warmup before trying something thats way past your level. When you're trying the thing way past your level also try and simplify it, for example, if you're playing op 25 no 1 by chopin, you can just play the top line of the melody, and the harmony in the base and ignore the inner lines and just count each thing out loud... Doing things like this will make the pieces at your level comparatively easier, and then it's also for the future....  When your mind is not fresh do scales, hanon, arpeggios, chords, improvisation... Then practice in 20-40 min sessions for intense focus, 1-2 hour sessions for maximum technique gains. Sometimes when you practice for 4-5 hours in one session, you will feel fatigued afterwards, this is perfectly normal (as long as it isn't lasting forever), but, the next day you play at the piano if you're building good habits you will be much more free.

Good luck.

[martinn]

Ok 

[lostinidlewonder]

I wonder if there is sense in doing a lot of different music briefly in initial grades or in general when aiming for fast development of skills, and sight reading ? And then leaving the lot not so polished and certainly not up to performance standard.

It depends. What does your unpolished playing sound and feel like? What do you allow to be not so exact? Are you able to play those pieces at performance level if you tried? How long would that take? What is your practice method like? How strong is your sight reading,  do you often play the correct notes, coordination, timing and fingerings on the fly?

Simply doing a lot of pieces terribly is not going to do much service except encourage you to play sloppy. When training sight reading most people benefit from successful reading attempts and that required specific pieces/exercises which you can actually play with some amount of mastery and control.

Ok 

That is such a minimalist answer you might benefit from actually offering feedback and thoughts for advice given to you otherwise people are not going to bother helping you much.

[ranjit]

I started at 21 during Covid, I'm 22 now turning 23 in January.

My rep as of now is
Chopin Prelude 28 C Minor (can play well with tons of freedom)
Chopin Prelude 28 no 7 (I can play it very wel with tons of freedom)
Bach Prelude in C (very well with freedom)
Tchaik Italian Folk Song and Neopolitan Song
Beethoven Sonatina 2nd mvmnt
Minuet in G Bach
Air Purcell
Clementi Sonatina mvmnt 1
some czerny op 299 (can also transpose them)
then tons of other pieces I've gotten like 80-90% polished, I can sightread basically anna magdalena or just easy pieces, pop songs, and other stuff.

Then what I'm working on and definitely good enough to play is these pieces: WTC1 Prelude in C Minor, Scriabin Prelude in A minor from op 11, and Chopin Valse 69 1 (B, C section have all notes learned, A fully polished).


I can explain how I did this, and I could have DEFINITELY done this faster, I was mostly self-taught and I did have some lessons with teachers, but I have never had a consistent teacher.

I played tons of scales when I first started out, because, I couldn't read music and knew fundamentals are important. Everyday I've practiced my scales for a while since I started, some days I would practice them for hours. I also do a lot of improvisation and random stuff, my improv is somewhat incoherent, but, as of late when I use my brain I can compose little motifs for minuets and stuff like that.

So scales, and improvisation is work that I would consider kind of just braindead work, mostly just playing around with playing scales in diff rhythms dynamics in diff hands, and doing all kinds of stuff like that. Or improv off scales by adding octaves in bassline or stuff like that. Never really was coherent theory wise, but, I was just doing this mechanically so I can get more accustomed and freedom feeling at instrument.

Then, for rep, I overthought a lot of stuff, and was really lost and still SOMEWHAT am, but, I am doing pretty good now. But, I would recommend you start with a method book and complete this as fast as possible and count every note out loud. This will be your hard practice and your main FOCUSing work at the piano, then the easy practice will be scales, arpeggios. octaves, chords, improvisation, etc. find exercises that work for you like Hanon and Czerny eventually. I would recommend Czerny op 299 FIRST then I tried Hanon about a month or two ago and it has greatly leveled up my technique and sightreading, but, I wouldn't do it until you are very comfortable and understand the basics of rotation, and alignment at the instrument, how to play scales properly, there is tons of great resources on youtube.

After you finish the method book, you should move on to anna magdalena, easy mozart minuets k1-k5, beethoven sonatina/ecossisae easier pieces, tchaik kids album, and all that kind of stuff...

BUT, THEN ONCE YOU GET TO THIS POINT AS WELL DO NOT FALL INTO THE TRAP THAT MOST ADULT BEGINNERS DO WHERE THEY ONLY FOLLOW THIS GRADUAL APPROACH... AT THIS POINT YOU SHOULD BE PLAYING STILL ALL THE STUFF THAT YOU LEARNED FRMO THE METHOD BOOK, YOU SHOULD PLAY YOUR METHOD BOOK ALMOST ONCE A DAY, AND BY THE TIME YOU CAN PLAY THIS STUFF, THE METHOD BOOK YOU WILL PLAY WITH GREAT FUN AND COMPLETE CONTROL AND FREEDOM, STILL COUNT OUT LOUD ON METHOD BOOK, AND ALWAYS TRY TO KEEP COUNT...

ANYWAYS, THE IMPORTANT POINT IS THIS... ONCE YOU GET PAST METHOD BOOK, EXERCISES, MAKE SURE YOU ALSO PRACTICE STUFF THAT IS WAY PAST YOUR LEVEL AS WELL CHOPIN WALTZES/MAZURKAS/ETUDES, BACH WTC, BEETHOVEN SONATAS, MOZART SONATAS, EVEN MODERN STUFF THATS VERY CHROMATIC IS GOOD!


So to make it more coherent...

When your mind is fresh, you should try something hard that is way past your level for a bit, maybe 5-10 minutes, then go to your rep that is comfortable for you (AMB, Mozart Minuets), and then when you start to lose focus or are getting bored with this kind of rep. Start practicing scales, you can also practice scales for a bit as a warmup before trying something thats way past your level. When you're trying the thing way past your level also try and simplify it, for example, if you're playing op 25 no 1 by chopin, you can just play the top line of the melody, and the harmony in the base and ignore the inner lines and just count each thing out loud... Doing things like this will make the pieces at your level comparatively easier, and then it's also for the future....  When your mind is not fresh do scales, hanon, arpeggios, chords, improvisation... Then practice in 20-40 min sessions for intense focus, 1-2 hour sessions for maximum technique gains. Sometimes when you practice for 4-5 hours in one session, you will feel fatigued afterwards, this is perfectly normal (as long as it isn't lasting forever), but, the next day you play at the piano if you're building good habits you will be much more free.

Good luck.

I'd like to take you up on this one. As someone who learned very similarly, I'm not sure this is for everyone. A few things -- don't try out something unergonomic and virtuosic like La Campanella as your stretch piece for 10 minutes, instead pick something relatively 'normal' and pianistic. Schubert Impromptus are a good example of this. Don't pick weird, finger-bendy stuff That can injure you in the worst case, but more likely set up poor habits unnecessarily. Poor habits can be corrected, but it's better not to learn to play something in a manner which you will totally have to scrap eventually.

Scales should not be braindead work, you should be focusing very keenly on the sound and touch.

Also, from my experience, while self-taught is okay, if you have the discipline and talent to self-teach for several hours, you are better off actively seeking a good teacher. This is because they can direct that time and attention into ways considerably better than what you could on your own. A good teacher will be able to meet you where you're at, see what you're doing right and what you're doing wrong with your own approach, and suggest improvements accordingly. Typically, being able to self-teach piano successfully means that you have a collection of traits and abilities which are well-suited for the piano, such as: good physical intuition which results in being able to discover better physical movements, good problem-solving abilities which allow you to figure out ways to learn pieces which are out-of-the-box, good listening ability -- for instance, you may correct your playing when you hear wrong notes by intuition or memory, a high capacity for long sessions of self-directed focus.

[martinn]

It depends. What does your unpolished playing sound and feel like? What do you allow to be not so exact? Are you able to play those pieces at performance level if you tried? How long would that take? What is your practice method like? How strong is your sight reading,  do you often play the correct notes, coordination, timing and fingerings on the fly?

Simply doing a lot of pieces terribly is not going to do much service except encourage you to play sloppy. When training sight reading most people benefit from successful reading attempts and that required specific pieces/exercises which you can actually play with some amount of mastery and control.
That is such a minimalist answer you might benefit from actually offering feedback and thoughts for advice given to you otherwise people are not going to bother helping you much.

I have in principle a few graded books from,say grade 1 to 8, and my intention is to play through those with a teacher. Then, I am no hurrier, so my project will take time, and I also don’t know how advanced music I will be able to play in a few years. I will decide on what to sighread, and try not to become sloppy.