Most unnecessary thing pianists struggle with

[anacrusis]

I just pondered what the most unnecessary thing pianists struggle with is. What I mean by that is if there is something that people struggle with a lot that could be easily avoided with just the right knowledge and little else. Obviously we all have our strengths and weaknesses, things that come easily to us and things that take a long time to sort out, if ever. But what if there is something that many struggle with that is quite unnecessary? I can't think of anything myself so I thought I'd ask here and see what y'all say

[jamienc]

Body awareness.

[ranjit]

Music theory is often taught quite poorly, so you have a ton of musicians who feel they don't have the talent for it but maybe just had poor instruction.

[anacrusis]

Body awareness.

Is that something you could learn relatively quickly (so that you don't have to struggle unnecessarily with it) with the right knowledge though? I have deliberately worked on my own body awareness for about 10 years, and it's much better now, but the majority of those years, I just look back and shake my head at how much I did not see and feel in my own body. And I'm sure I'll feel the same about how I'm doing now in 10 years from now.

[anacrusis]

Music theory is often taught quite poorly, so you have a ton of musicians who feel they don't have the talent for it but maybe just had poor instruction.

Interesting perspective. Music theory involves a lot of knowledge and a ton of practical application to learn properly though, so I'd say it's reasonable to struggle with it.

[droprenstein]

Correct posture and ergonomics, especially among self-taught beginners. I've seen far too many people injure themselves with this flaw that seems insignificant if one is a beginner. The proper position at the piano is not a natural position for a lot of people, making it very difficult to fix without proper instruction. Also falling into this category, the hand position is something that many more experienced people take for granted, but many beginners, especially those without instruction, injure their hands with bad positioning.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Filigree type passagework which is ultimately gestural in nature but is hard to organise until you break it down into groupings and only then put it together as the finished gesture, when all of a sudden it makes much more sense and fits better under the hand.

[j_tour]

Music theory involves a lot of knowledge and a ton of practical application to learn properly though, so I'd say it's reasonable to struggle with it.

I'm going to side with anacrusis on this one.  Well, going by the OP and the thread title it involves a bit of convolution, so I shall rephrase my opinion thusly:

Music theory is a necessary thing [I should hope everyone agrees, whether they are aspiring composers, or improvisors in the classical tradition, or merely performers who seek to understand], but it is indeed a necessary condition that to learn music theory, and to practice it, there should be a struggle.

In my case, it's a lifelong "struggle."  Yes, I've read about every textbook there is, and so forth, but I'm always discovering something new, or being reminded of a new application of an older technique I'd forgotten about.  In some aspects, it's a bit like having absolute pitch, let's say, but not having been through the process of training to associate pitches with "names," or what everyone would call pitches/notes, etc.

(Incidentally, as I become more and more involved with dense, chordal guitar arrangements, I find it's fairly difficult to remember a "map" of the fretboard, so as to read standard notation fairly fluently while playing the guitar....not impossible, clearly, but a challenge that involves this notion of mapping abstractions [say, pitches or pitch classes] to the wild territory we call music).  It's a lot like "hearing" something that is correct, but, for example, not being able to identify it in unambiguous language (for example, by writing it down without more than, say, a reference tone), nor even to sing it in clear tones without obfuscations like vibrato.

It's a bit like having very good memory for pitches (say, being able to recall an A=440 Hz), but needing to mentally transpose that tone or perhaps several tones one has memorized by intervals into the whole picture.  So, for example, to sight-read at the fretboard (or fingerboard), it just won't do to think "Oh, OK, I could play the D string, and go up a few, and, yeah, I could play an F there....or....use the G string and go up to that position." 

Same with music theory.  It's a struggle to become natural and adept with these "calculations."

In addition, where there is an evolving context in one's practice, there's going to be struggle:  necessary struggle.

[ted]

One unnecessary thing I did for ages was worrying too much about movements I found difficult. The trouble is that it became a never ending obsession. I worked on a given movement until I could do it, then easily found another I could not do and worked on that for weeks. It went on and on for years until I could play all sorts of movements which would be used in less than one percent of my playing and had minimal musical implication. Having the Virgil Practice Clavier no doubt aggravated the neurosis. I have more sense now and work on things that I can see will likely enhance my improvisation.

Music theory is a necessary thing [I should hope everyone agrees, whether they are aspiring composers, or improvisors in the classical tradition, or merely performers who seek to understand], but it is indeed a necessary condition that to learn music theory, and to practice it, there should be a struggle.

I've certainly never seen the point of it for my music and at seventy-five probably never shall. The lack could be mine, but I have never understood how it could help my personal musical creation at all. My teacher in my teens did his best with me but the poor man gave up in the end. I think we might have had this conversation before in another thread ?

[lostinidlewonder]

As a learning philosophy I reallly don't think there is anything that is "unnecessary" if someone struggles with some aspect of their education. Each person will struggle with different things that is for sure, to deem it unnecessary can demoralize someone and also underestimates the usefulness of the nature of struggles.

From doing things not so well for a period of time when you are shown a better way it will make much more sense on an intrinsic level because you have a lot to compare it with, thus being wrong or struggling is not so unnecessary because it is useful, there is something to realize when you break free from it.

In saying all this I think learning proper fingering for piano is something people can miss out on for a long time, piano is a tricky instrument since so many inferior fingerings can be used and gotten away with. People also can lack in musical thinking, how to repeat mindfully their passages when they are practicing. Many also have the need for more efficient goals in mind, for instance many people learn pieces that are far too advanced and would much more benefit from simplifying and strengthening their basic skills.

[anacrusis]

One unnecessary thing I did for ages was worrying too much about movements I found difficult. The trouble is that it became a never ending obsession. I worked on a given movement until I could do it, then easily found another I could not do and worked on that for weeks. It went on and on for years until I could play all sorts of movements which would be used in less than one percent of my playing and had minimal musical implication. Having the Virgil Practice Clavier no doubt aggravated the neurosis. I have more sense now and work on things that I can see will likely enhance my improvisation.

I've certainly never seen the point of it for my music and at seventy-five probably never shall. The lack could be mine, but I have never understood how it could help my personal musical creation at all. My teacher in my teens did his best with me but the poor man gave up in the end. I think we might have had this conversation before in another thread ?

I think it's necessary if you want to be able to imitate classical idioms, or understand already written classical pieces, but if all you want is to create in a style thats completely, intuitively your own then I do not see the point for it either.

[ted]

I think it's necessary if you want to be able to imitate classical idioms, or understand already written classical pieces, but if all you want is to create in a style thats completely, intuitively your own then I do not see the point for it either.

Yes that’s it exactly. When I was about twelve I adored Beethoven’s music ( I don’t now but that’s beside the point), saved my pocket money and bought Tovey’s analysis of the sonatas. Hoping to understand the creative process I found instead a banal collection of observations anybody could see - this chord, that chord, bar of this, bar of that. Of course since then musicians have told me theory is descriptive and not constructive. I did make some effort in my middle years, took lessons from the most prominent composer I could find. He was a nice chap, his knowledge of music was immense and I tried hard. However, in the end I still preferred my “wrong” sounds to his “right” ones so saw little point in continuing. At least I did make the effort I suppose.

[j_tour]

However, in the end I still preferred my “wrong” sounds to his “right” ones so saw little point in continuing. At least I did make the effort I suppose.

This is maybe off topic a bit, but your improvisations and handling of the keyboard, Ted, bespeak someone who has an extraordinary gift.  And you know this, but with humility and grace on your part.

To those who don't know Ted's music yet, I'd recommend with greatest force to check it out.

To the topic, the OP:  I still struggle to understand fingered instruments (guitars and others) in their manner of spelling common ideas like a sus_ as a "slash" chord (usually a triad over whatever note in the bass/baritone voice).  How many times have I translated in my head somebody saying "E over A" and have to translate that into regular language.

To that end, even though I played some guitar as a sideline to piano as a kid, I've found it useful to take up guitar nel mezzo del cammin and understand some idiomatic vocabulary,

How is that an "unnecessary thing"? Well, it's more the idea that one has to translate, say, fingerboard instruments to the keys.  It would be nice if everyone spoke, in terms of notation and theory, unambigously, but ... meh, I still insist on stating chords and implied voicings in the usual language, and I have no sympathy for guitarist who can't read a lead sheet from "go."

So, pianists struggle to communicate with fingerboard players, but it's not necessary:  simply choose adept fingerboard/fretboard players with which to collaborate.  Problem solved.

[anacrusis]

Yes that’s it exactly. When I was about twelve I adored Beethoven’s music ( I don’t now but that’s beside the point), saved my pocket money and bought Tovey’s analysis of the sonatas.

Why don't you adore his music anymore? What changed?

[ted]

Your guess is as good as mine. The only musical infatuation of my youth, and I had many, which has lasted is ragtime and I haven’t a clue why that is so either.

[fortissimo]

If your definition of "pianists" also includes the infinitely more numerous beginning and intermediate piano students (as opposed to the far rarer ones who make it to the advanced level, let alone collegiate, let alone who win elite competitions and/or make a successful career out of performing), then without any doubt, the most unnecessary thing pianists struggle with is inefficient practicing.  A failure to demonstrate metacognitive skill at the piano.  I wrote a series of articles on this, with the first article starting here:  https://blog.twedt.com/archives/3812

[droprenstein]

If your definition of "pianists" also includes the infinitely more numerous beginning and intermediate piano students (as opposed to the far rarer ones who make it to the advanced level, let alone collegiate, let alone who win elite competitions and/or make a successful career out of performing), then without any doubt, the most unnecessary thing pianists struggle with is inefficient practicing.  A failure to demonstrate metacognitive skill at the piano.  I wrote a series of articles on this, with the first article starting here:  https://blog.twedt.com/archives/3812

I'd still put inefficient practice second behind ergonomics. Inefficiency in practice can be theoretically overcome if you hammer at the piano for long enough, but bad ergonomics can cause long-term injuries if taken to it's extremes. Practice inefficiency is a lot harder to fix though, so I think this depends on the individual. In fact, this entire question depends on the individual.

[anacrusis]

If your definition of "pianists" also includes the infinitely more numerous beginning and intermediate piano students (as opposed to the far rarer ones who make it to the advanced level, let alone collegiate, let alone who win elite competitions and/or make a successful career out of performing), then without any doubt, the most unnecessary thing pianists struggle with is inefficient practicing.  A failure to demonstrate metacognitive skill at the piano.  I wrote a series of articles on this, with the first article starting here:  https://blog.twedt.com/archives/3812

I think one issue with finding solutions for people with inefficient practicing, is that it often seems to be assumed that the person just needs to be informed of the most efficient way of working, and then they'll just do it. It doesn't take into account that some people (myself included) find it incredibly boring to break the music down into small chunks and meticolously work on them the most efficient way. I play mostly for pleasure, so any practice approach that does not bring me pleasure gets thrown in the bin, even if what I do instead probably isn't very efficient.

[robertus]

Page turning! I find by far the most difficult issue in presenting any composition in a recital is how to turn the pages.

I have to spend ages cutting and pasting images, so that there are convenient points to flip over.

Modern editions are generally the worst, as the typesetting is so big that you have to turn the pages constantly, and then the books don't lay flat on the music stand. (Even the Dover editions, which claim that they do!)