Method of learning duplicate keys

[tomp86]

Hi guys.
During my adventure of learning various keys (majors first) I noticed B major has two different key signatures B and Cb. And I noticed F# major has 2 key signatures Gb Major and F# major and 2 minor keys eb minor and d# minor. Then C# major key also has 2 key signatures C# major and Db major.

Its difficult for me to articulate my question, but I want to know if there any shortcuts in learning these dupilcate keys or should I just learn them as I learned the other keys (practicing chord progressions keeping new key in mind, studing sheet music in the next signatures to identify degrees, play sheet music in the duplicate key and so on) 

Or would you advise not bothering to learn the duplicate keys (at all? or just for now? Im not sure)

Also, is there a preferred key of the duplicate set and what is the purpose of the duplicate key. When does it have its advantages?  Thank you very much if someone could help me clear of it up!

[ted]

That is a question both intriguing and enlightening. Does it not solely relate to written notation ? When I am improvising, considerations of notation do not occur to me at all. In fact, come to think of it, I perceive nothing except the sounds of the various note combinations and their haptic and "topographical" shape on the keyboard. Labels of any description, keys, chords and especially names do not occur to me at all, let alone how these features or their relations to one another might be labelled in transcription. This was also the case back in the days when I used improvisation to generate relatively conventional compositions. When I finally got around to writing on paper it was a toss-up as I recall whether I used, say, six sharps or six flats, and instances of both exist among my heap of old scores. One might be more convenient than the other in any given case depending on what other formations are in the piece, minimising accidentals and such considerations but those are cosmetic issues on paper for me.

I cannot imagine how an improviser could possibly have a parallel running spiderweb of labels and relations in his brain while creating spontaneously. Yet this is precisely what the jazz brigade say they do, so I could very well just be a big dud at mental arithmetic, I really don't know. If I thought about all those matters I'd likely grind to a halt.

So the answer for me is that, even in music centred on keys (most of mine isn't these days and virtually never just one key) the dualities you ask about are irrelevant, cosmetic properties of notation concerning the convenience of writing and reading a hypothetical end product.  Still, let's hear from some others, exactly what goes on in creator's minds always interests me.         

[brogers70]

Hi guys.
During my adventure of learning various keys (majors first) I noticed B major has two different key signatures B and Cb. And I noticed F# major has 2 key signatures Gb Major and F# major and 2 minor keys eb minor and d# minor. Then C# major key also has 2 key signatures C# major and Db major.

Its difficult for me to articulate my question, but I want to know if there any shortcuts in learning these dupilcate keys or should I just learn them as I learned the other keys (practicing chord progressions keeping new key in mind, studing sheet music in the next signatures to identify degrees, play sheet music in the duplicate key and so on) 

Or would you advise not bothering to learn the duplicate keys (at all? or just for now? Im not sure)

Also, is there a preferred key of the duplicate set and what is the purpose of the duplicate key. When does it have its advantages?  Thank you very much if someone could help me clear of it up!

Personally I'd prefer it if composers always chose the key signature with the fewest sharps or flats - why write in C# major (7 sharps), when Db major (5 flats) is equivalent (in modern tunings anyway)? As for Gb and F# (6 flats or 6 sharps) it does seem like a coin toss. I'd say learn whichever comes up in the pieces you like; eventually you'll get them all and be able to flip between them without much trouble.

I find that I like flat keys better than sharp ones when you get to the distant side of the circle of fifths. So even if something is written as a G# minor chord, my brain will remember as Ab minor. I don't think it matters that much. Sometimes notation can get pretty weird - in one piece I'm playing these days, Brahms Intermezzo in Bb minor Op 117 no. 2, there's a cadence on an Ebb (double flat) major chord - I just remember it as D major. These things don't come up all that often and you'll just get used to them over time. In the meanwhile, I'd say that if you are working on a piece in, say F# major, just think, once in a while, about how you'd name the chords if it had been written in Gb major. But don't worry too much about it; it will come with time and experience.

[tomp86]

That is a question both intriguing and enlightening. Does it not solely relate to written notation ? When I am improvising, considerations of notation do not occur to me at all. In fact, come to think of it, I perceive nothing except the sounds of the various note combinations and their haptic and "topographical" shape on the keyboard. Labels of any description, keys, chords and especially names do not occur to me at all, let alone how these features or their relations to one another might be labelled in transcription. This was also the case back in the days when I used improvisation to generate relatively conventional compositions. When I finally got around to writing on paper it was a toss-up as I recall whether I used, say, six sharps or six flats, and instances of both exist among my heap of old scores. One might be more convenient than the other in any given case depending on what other formations are in the piece, minimising accidentals and such considerations but those are cosmetic issues on paper for me.

I cannot imagine how an improviser could possibly have a parallel running spiderweb of labels and relations in his brain while creating spontaneously. Yet this is precisely what the jazz brigade say they do, so I could very well just be a big dud at mental arithmetic, I really don't know. If I thought about all those matters I'd likely grind to a halt.

So the answer for me is that, even in music centred on keys (most of mine isn't these days and virtually never just one key) the dualities you ask about are irrelevant, cosmetic properties of notation concerning the convenience of writing and reading a hypothetical end product.  Still, let's hear from some others, exactly what goes on in creator's minds always interests me.       

That was a very cool post. Thank you Ted for your outlook on this topic. I'd also be very interested to hear some of the compositions you've made if you have them online 

Personally I'd prefer it if composers always chose the key signature with the fewest sharps or flats - why write in C# major (7 sharps), when Db major (5 flats) is equivalent (in modern tunings anyway)? As for Gb and F# (6 flats or 6 sharps) it does seem like a coin toss. I'd say learn whichever comes up in the pieces you like; eventually you'll get them all and be able to flip between them without much trouble.

I find that I like flat keys better than sharp ones when you get to the distant side of the circle of fifths. So even if something is written as a G# minor chord, my brain will remember as Ab minor. I don't think it matters that much. Sometimes notation can get pretty weird - in one piece I'm playing these days, Brahms Intermezzo in Bb minor Op 117 no. 2, there's a cadence on an Ebb (double flat) major chord - I just remember it as D major. These things don't come up all that often and you'll just get used to them over time. In the meanwhile, I'd say that if you are working on a piece in, say F# major, just think, once in a while, about how you'd name the chords if it had been written in Gb major. But don't worry too much about it; it will come with time and experience.

Thanks brogers I like your approach to this a lot. I am interested to see if I also prefer the keys with flats on the left side of the circle as well. Many people say they find flats more tricky

[lelle]

Hi guys.
During my adventure of learning various keys (majors first) I noticed B major has two different key signatures B and Cb. And I noticed F# major has 2 key signatures Gb Major and F# major and 2 minor keys eb minor and d# minor. Then C# major key also has 2 key signatures C# major and Db major.

Its difficult for me to articulate my question, but I want to know if there any shortcuts in learning these dupilcate keys or should I just learn them as I learned the other keys (practicing chord progressions keeping new key in mind, studing sheet music in the next signatures to identify degrees, play sheet music in the duplicate key and so on) 

Or would you advise not bothering to learn the duplicate keys (at all? or just for now? Im not sure)

Also, is there a preferred key of the duplicate set and what is the purpose of the duplicate key. When does it have its advantages?  Thank you very much if someone could help me clear of it up!

In the beginning, I think it's enough to learn the circle of fifths until the keys "meet" for the first time (F#/Gb major, D#/Eb minor).

It's good to understand and be able to extrapolate how and why duplicate keys/chords are spelled as they are (for examble B major / C flat major), since some of these chords/keys do show up in classical compositions, but I don't think you need to actively pursue them when you are still learning the main circle

[ted]

That was a very cool post. Thank you Ted for your outlook on this topic. I'd also be very interested to hear some of the compositions you've made if you have them online 

I have sent you a message regarding that.