Scarlatti K.209 !

[happy notes]

Hi guys,

I'm in a bit of doubt and I'm not sure how to find the answer... Is Scarlatti's K.209 in Simple Binary Form, or Rounded Binary Form ??

Thanks!!

[anacrusis]

Not familiar with these definitions. When I look at an online definition of these terms and the score of the sonata I want to say rounded binary, because the material from the first part is repeated in the home key in the second part.

Rounded binary https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rounded%20binary%20form
Binary https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/binary%20form

What do you think based on the score and the above dictionary explanations?

[happy notes]

Not familiar with these definitions. When I look at an online definition of these terms and the score of the sonata I want to say rounded binary, because the material from the first part is repeated in the home key in the second part.

Rounded binary https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rounded%20binary%20form
Binary https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/binary%20form

What do you think based on the score and the above dictionary explanations?

Thank you very much for your help:)

[frodo4]

Hi guys,

I'm in a bit of doubt and I'm not sure how to find the answer... Is Scarlatti's K.209 in Simple Binary Form, or Rounded Binary Form ??

Thanks!!

I just noticed this.  Sorry for being probably too late.

Answer: K. 209 is in Simple Binary form after a quick look at this.  It is NOT in Rounded Binary or Ternary form.

Quick review of forms:
A B – Binary
A B A – Ternary
A B 1/2A – Rounded Binary form where “½ A” is the return of HALF of the A section.  Examples: Extremely short example: “Oh Susannah” song in 4 phrases of 4 measures each.  The first 2 phrases comprise the A section, the 3rd phase makes up the B section and the 4th phrase is the HALF return of the A section.  Another larger example of Rounded binary form: The theme to Mozart’s famous theme and variations from Piano Sonata K. 331. 

Leon Stein’s book “Structure & Style – The study and analysis of musical forms” has an OUTSTANDING chapter on the development of the Sonata Allegro form.  He explores in detail the historic development of the sonata-allegro form starting with Canzona of the 1500’s to Mahler and beyond.

Scarlatti tended to write maybe most of his sonatas in Binary form.  Stein outlined the binary A B form as follows in the case of Scarlatti and others:
A section to the double bars has 2 sections: 1) Main theme in tonic and 2) Secondary theme in a related key.
B section (the 2nd half of the piece):  Start with the (very often dominant) transposition of the beginning of  the A section followed by a possible development then followed by a return of the Secondary theme – this time on the tonic key. 

This appears to be the form of K. 209: 
A section: The main theme is in A major, the secondary theme in E minor with E major closing material.
B section:  Starts with main theme in E major followed by some developmental ideas followed by the secondary theme this time in A minor with A major closing material.

Scarlatti also wrote many of his sonatas in Ternary form – Example:  Sonata in f-minor K. 481.  Here the sonata comes much closer to the standard sonata-allegro form where there is a recapitulation of the main theme in the Tonic AFTER a development section. 
Ternary form A B A’ – sonata allegro
A – Exposition
B – Development
A’ -  Recapitulation

[anacrusis]

I just noticed this.  Sorry for being probably too late.

Answer: K. 209 is in Simple Binary form after a quick look at this.  It is NOT in Rounded Binary or Ternary form.

Quick review of forms:
A B – Binary
A B A – Ternary
A B 1/2A – Rounded Binary form where “½ A” is the return of HALF of the A section.  Examples: Extremely short example: “Oh Susannah” song in 4 phrases of 4 measures each.  The first 2 phrases comprise the A section, the 3rd phase makes up the B section and the 4th phrase is the HALF return of the A section.  Another larger example of Rounded binary form: The theme to Mozart’s famous theme and variations from Piano Sonata K. 331. 

Leon Stein’s book “Structure & Style – The study and analysis of musical forms” has an OUTSTANDING chapter on the development of the Sonata Allegro form.  He explores in detail the historic development of the sonata-allegro form starting with Canzona of the 1500’s to Mahler and beyond.

Scarlatti tended to write maybe most of his sonatas in Binary form.  Stein outlined the binary A B form as follows in the case of Scarlatti and others:
A section to the double bars has 2 sections: 1) Main theme in tonic and 2) Secondary theme in a related key.
B section (the 2nd half of the piece):  Start with the (very often dominant) transposition of the beginning of  the A section followed by a possible development then followed by a return of the Secondary theme – this time on the tonic key. 

This appears to be the form of K. 209: 
A section: The main theme is in A major, the secondary theme in E minor with E major closing material.
B section:  Starts with main theme in E major followed by some developmental ideas followed by the secondary theme this time in A minor with A major closing material.

Scarlatti also wrote many of his sonatas in Ternary form – Example:  Sonata in f-minor K. 481.  Here the sonata comes much closer to the standard sonata-allegro form where there is a recapitulation of the main theme in the Tonic AFTER a development section. 
Ternary form A B A’ – sonata allegro
A – Exposition
B – Development
A’ -  Recapitulation

Did you look at the links with explanations I posted? According to those articles, it should be in Rounded Binary, no?

[frodo4]

Did you look at the links with explanations I posted? According to those articles, it should be in Rounded Binary, no?

Hello Anacrusis,

Thank you for your questions.  I am just a student of music (as a side hobby).  The OP’s question and your questions deserve further explanation from what I originally provided. 

1) Did you look at the links with explanations I posted?
Answer: No - I did not look at your posted links with explanations until now. 

2) Your final question - According to those articles, it should be in Rounded Binary, no? Answer:
A) If you are studying from “Charles Rosen, Sonata Forms, 1988”, it looks like K209 is in Rounded Binary form.  EDIT:  Actually, I'm not sure that Rosen says this*.
B) If you are studying from “Leon Stein, Structure and Style – The study of musical forms”, K209 is in Binary form – NOT rounded binary form.
C)  If you are looking ONLY at the 2 links that you provide, K 209 is BOTH Rounded Binary AND Binary in form.  See discussion below.

I will say this about Stein’s book – his writing is concise and precise - almost as if I’m reading a math text.  Also, he does a fantastic job in putting everything into historical context.

*BTW – I just ordered Charles Rosen, Sonata Forms, 1988 from Amazon.
_____________________________________________________________________________

Additional discussion:
Your links are from the Merriam-Webster dictionary – America’s most trusted dictionary.  Here are the definitions of rounded binary and binary forms as shown in your link.

rounded binary form
a two-part musical form in which the first part modulates to the dominant or relative major and the second part returns to the tonic and recapitulates all or most of the opening section entirely in the tonic
-------------
When the opening section of the three-phrase form has a strong cadence on V, it is generally classified as rounded binary form.
—Charles Rosen, Sonata Forms, 1988

binary form
a two-part musical form in which the first part modulates to the dominant or relative minor and the second returns to the tonic
-------------
In binary form, the opening melody returns in a key other than the tonic or does not return at all.
—John A. Rice, Antonio Salieri and Viennese Opera, 1998

According to these definitions, K 209 is BOTH rounded binary and binary in form.  K209 is in BINARY form since it is in a two-part musical form in which the first part modulates to the dominant and the second returns to the tonic AND the opening melody of K209 returns in a key other than the tonic - K209 has the opening melody return in the dominant at the beginning of the B section.

The following must be considered when trying to answer the question of the form of Scarlatti K209:
Music is not an exact science like Mathematics.  When math discuses the "mean value theorem", for example, there are no differences of opinions of what the mean value theorem is.  Sure, there is Lagrange's Mean Value Theorem and Cauchy's Mean Value Theorem, for example.  But in this case the Mean Value Theorem of Cauchy is just a generalization of Lagrange's Mean Value Theorem.  Unlike mathematics, in music there are often ambiguous or different and conflicting definitions of various terms!!

Leon Stein says in the introduction of his “Structure and Style – The study of musical forms”:
“Ambiguity and lack of uniformity in terminology have always been problems in analysis.  For that reason, [only] the most generally accepted terms are used [in my book]; those which might be equivocal or obscure have been rejected, and personal or singular nomenclature has been avoided.”  It should be noted that for this reason (I am assuming), the term “rounded binary” form does not even appear in Stein’s book.  Instead, Stein uses the term “incipient three-part song form”, which generally is a 16-measure unit.  Stein’s definition of incipient three-part song form matches very closely the definition of “rounded binary form” found in my music theory text “Tonal Harmony with an introduction to 20th century music” by Kostka, Payne and Almen – 7th edition.  Examples include the 2 that I mention in my first post as well as the Finale of Beethoven Sonata Op. 7 measures 1 to 16 and the Andante of Beethoven Sonata Op 14, No. 2 measures 1-16.  Also included in this is Beethoven’s “Ode to Joy” theme from his 9th symphony.  So, we are looking at very small forms here when talking about rounded binary form. 

Also, let’s look at the Wikipedia article on Binary form.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_form

Simple vs. rounded [Binary Form]

"Oh, Susannah": example of rounded binary form.

Occasionally, the B section will end with a "return" of the opening material from the A section. This is referred to as rounded binary, and is labeled as ABA′. In rounded binary, the beginning of the B section is sometimes referred to as the "bridge", and will usually conclude with a half cadence in the original key. Rounded binary is not to be confused with ternary form, also labeled ABA—the difference being that, in ternary form, the B section contrasts completely with the A material as in, for example, a minuet and trio. Another important difference between the rounded and ternary form is that in rounded binary, when the "A" section returns, it will typically contain only half of the full "A" section, whereas ternary form will end with the full "A" section.
......

Rounded vs. incipient or small ternary
As noted above, there is some disagreement about the use of the term rounded binary. The disagreements concern two issues: whether the names rounded binary, incipient ternary, or small ternary is more appropriate to describe the form; and how much of the A section must return at the end of the B section to be considered rounded.
......
Putting these ideas together, if the material between the A section and the return of the thematic material does not stand alone (a digression) and only a part of the A section returns, we do not have a ternary form, and may have a rounded binary, though not all theorist would accept this terminology (and there is some overlap here with the notion of balanced binary -- see above). If we have a digression, but also have the entire A section returning, then it might be called either rounded binary or incipient ternary (meaning, "approaching ternary"), depending on the theorist. If the intermediate material stands on its own as a self-sufficient section, then we have small ternary (in such cases, the entire A section usually returns).

[frodo4]

I should note that Wikipedia has the following wording in the Simple vs. Rounded Binary form section of the Binary form article:

"Sometimes, as in the keyboard sonatas of Domenico Scarlatti, the return of the A theme may include much of the original A section in the tonic key, so much so that some of his sonatas can be regarded as precursors of sonata form."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_form

"Return of the A theme???"  Not sure what the author is saying here.  The A section of a Scarlatti sonata is typically comprised of 2 themes:  The main theme of the A section is in the tonic and the secondary theme of the A section is in a related key - often the dominant for major keys.  Parts of this article are maybe a bit of a mess TBH.  But it is also helpful if you pick out the many good parts.

What the author of this article also appears to be missing is the fact that many some of the Sonatas of Scarlatti are in Ternary form.  Here the author is describing Scarlatti sonatas that are much closer to the sonata-allegro form in a section labeled as Simple vs Rounded Binary form.  The Scarlatti sonatas that are very close to the Sonata-allegro form are from my understanding not Binary but instead are in Ternary form where there is a recapitulation of the main theme (i.e., opening melody) in the Tonic AFTER a development section. As shown in the Merriam-Webster dictionary, Salieri musicologist John A. Rice evidently said: "In binary form, the opening melody returns in a key other than the tonic or does not return at all."  Here the "opening melody" is the same as what I call "main theme".

As I said earlier as edited:

Scarlatti also wrote many some of his sonatas in Ternary form – Example:  Sonata in f-minor K. 481.  Here the sonata comes much closer to the standard sonata-allegro form where there is a recapitulation of the main theme in the Tonic AFTER a development section.
Ternary form A B A’ – sonata allegro
A – Exposition
B – Development
A’ -  Recapitulation

To recapitulate  - K209 is in Binary form.  Some authors may also classify this sonata as being in Rounded Binary form.  K209 is NOT in ternary form.

See everyone later! 

[lelle]

I love how nerdy this thread is! Nowhere else but among pianists do things of this nature get discussed in such detail.

[frodo4]

Answer: K. 209 is in Simple Binary form after a quick look at this.  It is NOT in Rounded Binary or Ternary form.

Wrong.  My mistake.  But we are all here to learn - so hopefully no problem.  And yes - I am (or can be) quite a bit of a nerd.   

Correct would be: K. 209 is in Binary form.  If you define "simple binary form" as being "in binary form but not in rounded binary form" and you accept the Merriam-Webster dictionary definition of rounded binary form (provided by anacrusis) as shown next, then K. 209 is in rounded binary form and therefore is not in simple binary form.

rounded binary form - per Merriam-Webster dictionary
a two-part musical form in which the first part modulates to the dominant or relative major and the second part returns to the tonic and recapitulates all or most of the opening section entirely in the tonic.

My question - Where did Merriam-Webster dictionary get this definition?

_______________________________________________________________________________
Having corrected myself, here are some more nerdy items. 

Charles Rosen "Sonata forms"
I received my "Sonata Forms" by Charles Rosen book today and took a quick look at this.

Rosen defines rounded binary form on P. 21 as "When the opening section of the three-phrase form has a strong cadence on V, it is generally classified as rounded binary form."  He makes no mention of anything resembling the Merriam-Webster dictionary definition. 

Rosen says "There are 3 basic kinds of binary pattern in the early 18th century sonata style....  These patterns may be called ‘Three phrase’, 'two phrase’ and ‘aria’." He does not strictly define these terms but instead gives examples of each?!  None of the examples are by Scarlatti.  Most of the examples are much smaller in form than most Scarlatti sonatas. Rosen then follows his examples with a brief harmonic progression summary of these 3 forms and a brief discussion of thematic relations. He doesn't even define what “phrase” is and his use of "phrase" does not match standard definitions*.  So how can we learn from such a book?  Not sure.  I would have to wrestle with this book for a while.

*EDIT: Rosen's examples show a single phrase that is made up of multiple phrases using standard definitions. Per Stein - The term Phrase is one of the most ambiguous in music.  The norm is based on the following:  1) The conventional phrase is 4 measures in length but it can be shorter or longer.  2) The phase is the shortest unit terminated by a cadence, etc.

Also, Rosen has about 4 pages talking about Scarlatti sonatas - none mentions any of Scarlatti sonatas being in rounded binary form.  The only mention by Rosen of the form of Scarlatti sonatas is on p. 135: "Scarlatti's structures can still largely be subsumed under the category of binary form."

Ralph Kirkpatrick "Domenico Scarlatti”
I also took a QUICK look at the book "Domenico Scarlatti” by Ralph Kirkpatrick – the same person who came up with the Scarlatti sonata numbering system – example K209.  Kirkpatrick does not use the term rounded binary but he does refer to most of his sonatas as being in binary form.

Kirkpatrick is the exact opposite of Stein.  Instead of only using fully accepted terms with clear definitions, Kirkpatric makes up his own terminology just to describe Scarlatti sonatas in chapter 11 called "The anatomy of the Scarlatti sonata".  Example: the famous term “Crux”.  Some of his definitions are very confusing and vague. Example: For his term “Transition” he says: “Its name is misleading….. It is simply the material …. that must be distinguished from the preceding ‘opening’ or ‘continuation’ and the following ‘pre-Crux’ sections.”  But his definitions of pre-crux and other terms are also just as vague. I would have to spend more time here to better understand.

Having said all that, I still find the Kirkpatrick book to be mostly excellent, including his biography of Scarlatti in the first 7 chapters and the discussion of the harmony of Scarlatti in chapter 10.  He does break Scarlatti sonatas down into 2 main types in chapter 11: 1) open sonata and 2) closed sonata (again, his own terminology!) – where these terms are nicely defined.  The open sonatas include 4 sonatas that have a recapitulation of the opening theme in the TONIC after a development section – example K481 that I mentioned before.  These are the Scarlatti sonatas that are in Ternary form although Kirkpatrick does not use the term ternary here.  However, Kirkpatrick does agree that these 4 sonatas (including the K481 mentioned) are Scarlatti's closest sonatas to the classical sonata-allegro form!