Method of learning a piece for sight reading practice (lower levels)

[tomp86]

Hi all. It's Christmas eve here and I have a question! Much unlike droprenstein's much higher level sightreading technique question, I have a question relatingto new students who are stuggling with the finger as the neuron connections are still non-existant. My question is:  What is the most efficent method (for you) to learn / conquor pieces during the begginger stages of sight reading training?

My usual approach is to keep repeating the song until first repeat bar trying to keep perfect rythym using internal counting. (no nome)

I have watched a Melbourne youtuber Jazer, who seems to be as good as all you guys!, suggest taking a very small section (1 bar to 1 line maximum) and keep repeating it over and over without looking at hands and without worrying about rythm whatsoever and the section much be repeated over and over untill it is played, without mistake, exactly 7 time over. Please let me know if this has worked well for you guys as my initial feel when trying it was 7 time felt excessive in comparison with the method I previouly used. Video link 

[ranjit]

Why are you repeating a measure over and over for sight reading training?

[frodo3]

1) Name of this thread: "Method of learning a piece for sight reading practice (lower levels)"

2)

My question is:  What is the most efficent method (for you) to learn / conquor pieces during the begginger stages of sight reading training?

Ranjit asks the same question that comes to my mind when reading your original post.  I'm thinking that we may have different definitions of sight reading after a quick read of your original post.

Sight reading in its strictest definition means to read a piece of music that the performer has never seen or heard before.  As such, you can only sight read a piece of music one time.  This is the definition I think most use when talking about sight reading.

I'm wondering if your definition for sight reading is something like:  Playing music from a score that has previously been studied but is not yet memorized.  With this less strict definition, your above 2 items above may read as follows:

1) Thread name: Method of learning a piece in the early stages of practice before the piece is memorized  (for lower level players)

2) Question: What is the most efficient method (for you) to learn / conquer pieces during the beginner stages of learning a piece before the piece is memorized?

Please clarify what you are looking for here.   

[frodo3]

Hi all. It's Christmas eve here and I have a question! Much unlike droprenstein's much higher level sightreading technique question, I have a question relatingto new students who are stuggling with the finger as the neuron connections are still non-existant. My question is:  What is the most efficent method (for you) to learn / conquor pieces during the begginger stages of sight reading training?

My usual approach is to keep repeating the song until first repeat bar trying to keep perfect rythym using internal counting. (no nome)

I have watched a Melbourne youtuber Jazer, who seems to be as good as all you guys!, suggest taking a very small section (1 bar to 1 line maximum) and keep repeating it over and over without looking at hands and without worrying about rythm whatsoever and the section much be repeated over and over untill it is played, without mistake, exactly 7 time over. Please let me know if this has worked well for you guys as my initial feel when trying it was 7 time felt excessive in comparison with the method I previouly used. Video link 

I just reread the original post.  7 times is a good number to shoot for in my opinion.  I did not listen to the attached video, but here are some thoughts that come to mind.  If you can play a small section 7 times in a row with good sound and no mistakes, you have a better chance of playing it that way in recital.  But you will need to do a lot more than repeat the small section 7 times in a row to have confidence that the passage will come out that way in recital.  This is a good starting point though.  Smaller sections need to be strung together into larger sections.  You will need to analyze structure of the piece, etc.  If you repeat the passage 7 times with aid of a score, you will need to use the score in recital. For me to say more, I would have to listen to your video.  Not sure if this helps.  Merry Christmas! 

[martinn]

I got amazing results when I made a custom note stand for my digital piano, much higher up than those provided by manufacturer. This height prevents me from looking at my hands when reading the music. Previously I looked lazily both at the music and my hands. First, when I started sight reading I had to initially follow my hands, but now with more practice, I can approximate distances and fingers much better. And how did I get there, well, by playing a lot of simple beginner music. I am still working on this, and ever will.

[tomp86]

Why are you repeating a measure over and over for sight reading training?

My aim is to learn new pieces to help make it quicker to new piece pieces in the future and to help my future sightreading ability. (as I've learnt where the fingers go for those notes)
Is this wrong?

1) Thread name: Method of learning a piece in the early stages of practice before the piece is memorized  (for lower level players)

I was going to open a second topic on this exact thread name you've just posted!! In a couple of weeks though. I'd like to know the answer to this question, but first I would like to know more about how to improve my sightreading as I thought the best way to do it was by learning new pieces. Could it simply be I am trying to learn pieces that are above my sight reading level?  Secondly, is it a more efficient use of time to "learn pieces" like in that video, pieces that take a bit of work, or to play pieces that can be sightread perfectly or close to on the first attempt?  What skills does each approach gain experience points in? Thanks

I'll keep an eye out for one. Thanks Martin. I do try my best to never look down at my hands 

[ranjit]

While I think learning pieces is good for sightreading I think this is after the early beginner stages. At the early beginner stages, I would suggest reading a ton of very easy music, as simple as melodies hands separate or easy exercises if necessary, the idea being to familiarise yourself with notes and simple patterns such as scales and chords and arpeggios as soon as possible. Once you get to that stage, learning short easy pieces can help you absorb more of the vocabulary.

[tomp86]

While I think learning pieces is good for sightreading I think this is after the early beginner stages. At the early beginner stages, I would suggest reading a ton of very easy music, as simple as melodies hands separate or easy exercises if necessary, the idea being to familiarise yourself with notes and simple patterns such as scales and chords and arpeggios as soon as possible. Once you get to that stage, learning short easy pieces can help you absorb more of the vocabulary.

Thanks the advice ranjit. I've gone through the process of playing basic pieces usually in the eaier keys and I find I've run out of material. I've played my level 1 books, and done all the beginner pieces online that I can find. So I've tried other books such as Music for Millions and am finding I need to learn these pieces by repeating over and over much like jazers video. Does this mean I need to keep playing very easy pieces and do you have any suggestions how to find new pieces? Also is it worth subscribing for an app so this specific training?

[lostinidlewonder]

It is necessary to identify and utilize appropriate material that aligns with your current skill level. This involves finding works that do not present significant challenges or hindrances, as well as material that slightly pushes your abilities without overwhelming you. It is important to avoid continuously struggling with material that is too difficult (unless you apply simplifications to those works such as ignoring rhythm and going super slow to avoid errors), as this can lead to frustration and hinder progress and simply have you exepriencing bad sight reading. Instead, aim to achieve a high level of accuracy on the first try by finding works that are appropriately challenging, and gradually increase the difficulty as your skills improve. While this approach may seem straightforward, it is not uncommon for individuals to struggle with finding the right balance with the works they train their sight reading practice.

In order to effectively improve your sight reading skills, it is important to incorporate a diverse range of material into your practice regimen. While it can be beneficial to repeat training with a particular piece in order to address any challenges or difficulties you may encounter, it is also important to expose yourself to a variety of works in order to broaden your skills and build a strong foundation. Rather than solely focusing on a small number of works, it is more beneficial to work with a larger number of pieces in order to maximize the benefits of your practice. This will help you to become more versatile and adaptable in your sight reading abilities, rather than becoming overly reliant on a limited set of works.

[tomp86]

It is necessary to identify and utilize appropriate material that aligns with your current skill level. This involves finding works that do not present significant challenges or hindrances, as well as material that slightly pushes your abilities without overwhelming you. It is important to avoid continuously struggling with material that is too difficult (unless you apply simplifications to those works such as ignoring rhythm and going super slow to avoid errors), as this can lead to frustration and hinder progress and simply have you exepriencing bad sight reading. Instead, aim to achieve a high level of accuracy on the first try by finding works that are appropriately challenging, and gradually increase the difficulty as your skills improve. While this approach may seem straightforward, it is not uncommon for individuals to struggle with finding the right balance with the works they train their sight reading practice.

In order to effectively improve your sight reading skills, it is important to incorporate a diverse range of material into your practice regimen. While it can be beneficial to repeat training with a particular piece in order to address any challenges or difficulties you may encounter, it is also important to expose yourself to a variety of works in order to broaden your skills and build a strong foundation. Rather than solely focusing on a small number of works, it is more beneficial to work with a larger number of pieces in order to maximize the benefits of your practice. This will help you to become more versatile and adaptable in your sight reading abilities, rather than becoming overly reliant on a limited set of works.

I understand ben thanks. I tried some of the pieces you sent me a while back but they are to difficult for me on initial play. Im not sure what I should play. Do you suggest I purchase level 1 and 2 sheet music books? Or try Skoove? Ive heard mixed opinions on that app. Im still in the process of looking for a teacher. Im finding it difficult to progress without an instructor

[lostinidlewonder]

I don't remember sending you pieces specifically for sight reading. You need to simply google piano music that is easy enough for you to read. There is no point purchasing a book or using an app if you have never found any pieces that you do find easy enough. Surely you can find something that is ridiculously simple?

[lelle]

Have you tried reading some of Bartok's mikrokosmos?

[tomp86]

I don't remember sending you pieces specifically for sight reading. You need to simply google piano music that is easy enough for you to read. There is no point purchasing a book or using an app if you have never found any pieces that you do find easy enough. Surely you can find something that is ridiculously simple?

Yes, I've been doing all the easy pieces on sites like 8note. I can Ben. I was looking for a preferable alternative that has a large collection of pieces I can work through to try limit my time searching as Im the type of person who gets distrated eaisly when im on google

[tomp86]

Have you tried reading some of Bartok's mikrokosmos?

I haved tried Bartok Mikrokosmos yes lelle. Thanks.  On reddit a pianist also recommended Bartok and some other books

Mikrokosmos book 1 (through 4, as you progress) by Bartók.

Gurlitt Op. 117 The First Lessons

Kunz Op. 14 200 Little Canons

Bartók Sz 42 For Children

Maybe time to use the credit card?

[lostinidlewonder]

Canons will do your head in, they may look easy but they actually are not as easy as they look. They also have little context to more modern music. The Gurlitt also is rather boring and the Bartok For Children I estimate will be too difficult to sight read. You want works where you can actually hear what you are playing and anticipate the sounds to come not be lost and merely sight read without any listening.

I do advise that you actually search the internet for easy works that are out there and start your own collection. It is a much better way to get your bearings as to what you can manage and what you cannot. Simply trying to take a short cut and do an entire volume of one book really isn't that good of an idea imho.

Google will send you to websites which have a lot of works you can look through
here is one random one I got from just googling: "Easy piano sheet music for beginners", there are so many more you can look through and start collecting.

https://www.music-for-music-teachers.com/beginner-piano-music.html

[tomp86]

Canons will do your head in, they may look easy but they actually are not as easy as they look. They also have little context to more modern music. The Gurlitt also is rather boring and the Bartok For Children I estimate will be too difficult to sight read. You want works where you can actually hear what you are playing and anticipate the sounds to come not be lost and merely sight read without any listening.

I do advise that you actually search the internet for easy works that are out there and start your own collection. It is a much better way to get your bearings as to what you can manage and what you cannot. Simply trying to take a short cut and do an entire volume of one book really isn't that good of an idea imho.

Google will send you to websites which have a lot of works you can look through
here is one random one I got from just googling: "Easy piano sheet music for beginners", there are so many more you can look through and start collecting.

https://www.music-for-music-teachers.com/beginner-piano-music.html

Upon doing a lot of googling on this topic all the expert musicians such as your yourself seem to have the same general opinion. They suggest seeking out pieces that you like and are on your sight reading level and just keep playing new ones and eventually you'll improve.

Good sight readers didn't generally get good by "practicing" sight reading. They just played through a lot of music for enjoyment. Choose pieces that interest you at a level where you can have reasonable success. Don't be afraid to stop while sight reading if you have to. I don't recommend something like the Bartok because beyond the very easiest which will probably not be interesting musically, they contain a lot of meter changes and accidentals that make them difficult to read.

If the music one is sight reading is not something one enjoys, then sight reading becomes a chore. That's why I would never recommend those sight reading app with random musical selections. If you like to play classical, sight read music by the great composers, not second or third rate composers. If you like non classical, sight read good arrangements at a level appropriate for your skill.

Many pianists, on an external forum, seem to also be recommending the "RCM 4 Star sight reading books" from level 1 (and onwards as you progress). And one mentioned he didn't touch "Music for Millions" and sonata books until he got through all these books after 4 years.

He also provided his general rules to keep in mind to improve sight reading

The trick is to do it everyday for a few minutes. It doesn't take long to get better. Aim for accuracy, not speed, and don't stop or hesitate. Get the notes and rhythm right. Go as slow as you need to. Later, much later, you can worry about speed.

I also found this in my search for very easy c major sight reading practice  https://michaelkravchuk.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/354-Reading-Exercises-in-C-Position-Full-Score.pdf
What do you think of it for sight reading practice?

[lostinidlewonder]

Upon doing a lot of googling on this topic all the expert musicians such as your yourself seem to have the same general opinion. They suggest seeking out pieces that you like and are on your sight reading level and just keep playing new ones and eventually you'll improve.

It is important to be able to listen to and understand the music being played when sight reading, even if you do not necessarily "like" the pieces. This ability helps you to appreciate the music and anticipate the sounds, which can improve your sight reading skills. Often, this aspect is underestimated, but it is crucial for effective sight reading practice.

Many pianists, on an external forum, seem to also be recommending the "RCM 4 Star sight reading books" from level 1 (and onwards as you progress). And one mentioned he didn't touch "Music for Millions" and sonata books until he got through all these books after 4 years.

Sight reading training often requires a large volume of material, so a physical book may not last long and may contain content that becomes obsolete or is too difficult. While you can purchase books for this purpose, there are also many free resources available online that may be sufficient. Ultimately, it is a matter of personal preference and financial consideration.

I also found this in my search for very easy c major sight reading practice  https://michaelkravchuk.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/354-Reading-Exercises-in-C-Position-Full-Score.pdf
What do you think of it for sight reading practice?

These sight reading exercises generally get more difficult as you go along and are a good way to see how you're doing and where you might need more work. They can show you what you're good at and what's harder for you. The only downfall is that you can't hear the music when you do them and these exercises can really simply sound like a jumble. Use them, but don't just stick to those. Mix it up with other stuff too

[tomp86]

It is important to be able to listen to and understand the music being played when sight reading, even if you do not necessarily "like" the pieces. This ability helps you to appreciate the music and anticipate the sounds, which can improve your sight reading skills. Often, this aspect is underestimated, but it is crucial for effective sight reading practice.

Sight reading training often requires a large volume of material, so a physical book may not last long and may contain content that becomes obsolete or is too difficult. While you can purchase books for this purpose, there are also many free resources available online that may be sufficient. Ultimately, it is a matter of personal preference and financial consideration.These sight reading exercises generally get more difficult as you go along and are a good way to see how you're doing and where you might need more work. They can show you what you're good at and what's harder for you. The only downfall is that you can't hear the music when you do them and these exercises can really simply sound like a jumble. Use them, but don't just stick to those. Mix it up with other stuff too

When you say "listen to and understand the music being played" and "hear the music when you do them" do you mean first listen to a recording or midi playback of the piece (such as the 8note feature I'll attach) or do you mean play along with a recording of the piece?
Now when I think about it a little more its the former as you listen to a recording to understand the correct way to play this rythym, articulation, tempo etc for future pieces that have the same notation. Ortherwise, some things you may think you know, but you don't actually know how to play correctly. Correct?

[lostinidlewonder]

It means that when you actually play the piece on the piano yourself and you can hear the music and anticipate the sounds that will come or appreciate the sounds that are being produced as being correct. If you play music where you are unaware if the notes played are the correct sound or are unable to feel the rhythms or coordination played this disconnects the ear and inner pulse from your sight reading and thus puts you at a great handicap.

[tomp86]

It means that when you actually play the piece on the piano yourself and you can hear the music and anticipate the sounds that will come or appreciate the sounds that are being produced as being correct.

But this would only be possible with songs that I have heard before I the past, correct? Otherwise I would need perfect pitch

[lostinidlewonder]

It means when you play the piece on the piano with the sheet music that you are listening to the sounds you are producing and understand that it sounds correct. You should be able to detect if a wrong note is played or if something sounds off or if something feels wrong, that is why you need easy enough music which allows you to do this.

[tomp86]

It means when you play the piece on the piano with the sheet music that you are listening to the sounds you are producing and understand that it sounds correct. You should be able to detect if a wrong note is played or if something sounds off or if something feels wrong, that is why you need easy enough music which allows you to do this.

Okay so to me what you are talking about is training the ear too associate written notes I see on the paper to a particular sound. So you should have a sub-conscious understanding of the chord tones 3rd, 5th, 7th etc, including all the possible intervals for the key and how they sound together.  When an accidental is applied that is less commonly used I guess this would be a little more difficult for musicians to predict the sound

[ranjit]

Okay so to me what you are talking about is training the ear too associate written notes I see on the paper to a particular sound. So you should have a sub-conscious understanding of the chord tones 3rd, 5th, 7th etc, including all the possible intervals for the key and how they sound together.  When an accidental is applied that is less commonly used I guess this would be a little more difficult for musicians to predict the sound

It is familiarity with the language. In context, you immediately pick up on the fact that something is weird after some time. Like you wonder -- why is there this weird bitonal sh*t in Mozart and you realise you missed a clef change. A less obvious example would be a weird chord change (V minor to I at the end of a cadence) or dissonant note (say F# over a C major chord) in the middle of a texture. I'm explaining it in words, but that's not how you think about it -- you react instinctively to the sound and the style. However I think understanding theory can help solidify this intuition somewhat.

[tomp86]

It is familiarity with the language. In context, you immediately pick up on the fact that something is weird after some time. Like you wonder -- why is there this weird bitonal sh*t in Mozart and you realise you missed a clef change. A less obvious example would be a weird chord change (V minor to I at the end of a cadence) or dissonant note (say F# over a C major chord) in the middle of a texture. I'm explaining it in words, but that's not how you think about it -- you react instinctively to the sound and the style. However I think understanding theory can help solidify this intuition somewhat.

I understand ranjit. From what lostinidlewonder was saying it sounds like I should be able to predict how the piece sounds as I read ahead though. As if the music is playing in my mind as I read ahead. Not only the ability to think "not this doesnt sound right" after I have already played the notes physically on the piano.  Ben can you please elborate your meaning

[lostinidlewonder]

I understand ranjit. From what lostinidlewonder was saying it sounds like I should be able to predict how the piece sounds as I read ahead though.

Rather than reading ahead it is a sense of what notes probably should come next and if what is played sounds off it is most likely you have made an error.

I am sure if I played a melodic line and then suddenly stopped and asked you what note could come next that sounds right you could come up with a few options that would make sense. Or if i played a melody and asked what chord might sound right and gave you a few options you could tell which one was good and which ones sounded off. It is this sense of listening to what you play that is important.

If you for example took an odd atonal piece with weird rhythms and coordination and you tried to read it you might get quite lost as you are not sure if what you are doing is correct or with error, in this case it is your ear which cannot follow or anticipate the sounds that should come.

[tomp86]

I am sure if I played a melodic line and then suddenly stopped and asked you what note could come next that sounds right you could come up with a few options that would make sense. Or if i played a melody and asked what chord might sound right and gave you a few options you could tell which one was good and which ones sounded off. It is this sense of listening to what you play that is important.

If you for example took an odd atonal piece with weird rhythms and coordination and you tried to read it you might get quite lost as you are not sure if what you are doing is correct or with error, in this case it is your ear which cannot follow or anticipate the sounds that should come.

Ok I understand what your saying and it is in line with ranjit. When I sightread I am pretty easily able to tell if I press a wrong note retrospectively unless I hit a chord tone or a suspenion that actually sounds really good or better than the original.  As a composer, you have many options of what voice to use any many options are as good or even better.  Although when I do hit a wrong note that sounds good I do instinctively know the interval was a bit of a gamble and I'm not sure if I really hit the right note, so I look at my hands and usually verify it was wrong.

I guess the ability to play at a decent tempo plays a large role in this too. If I play something difficult at snail pace, then I'm not getting the proper experience of a piece the composer has intended. Although it may sound good when played slow (with incorrect but good sounding notes) it can sound sh*t when played at tempo

[lostinidlewonder]

Ok I understand what your saying and it is in line with ranjit. When I sightread I am pretty easily able to tell if I press a wrong note retrospectively unless I hit a chord tone or a suspenion that actually sounds really good or better than the original.

Not usual and since pieces repeat patterns you should notice something odd is occuring eventually.

  Although when I do hit a wrong note that sounds good I do instinctively know the interval was a bit of a gamble and I'm not sure if I really hit the right note, so I look at my hands and usually verify it was wrong.

This sounds like working with pieces where you can't completely control what you are doing. There really shouldn't be much of this estimation if you deal with works at an appropriate level.

I guess the ability to play at a decent tempo plays a large role in this too. If I play something difficult at snail pace, then I'm not getting the proper experience of a piece the composer has intended. Although it may sound good when played slow (with incorrect but good sounding notes) it can sound sh*t when played at tempo

I dont think slower making wrong notes sound good. Playing at a good tempo of course requires music at an appropriate level but taking pieces at slower tempo is fine too especially if you have a high level of accuracy.

[tomp86]

What would be a good tempo to aim for to sight reading the "354-Reading-Exercises-in-C-Position-Full-Score" and other pieces for that matter? Should I go in full throttle and try to nail them as fast as I can or should you look over the whole piece gauge it for the quickest tempo you think you can play without creating a pause? What do you think?

[lelle]

Go as slowly as you need to not have to pause and hesitate. Getting it right, even if it's super slowly, is what sets you up for getting it right at a faster tempo later.

[lostinidlewonder]

Yes slow and accurate with correct notes, fingerings, coordination, rhythms and an even manageable tempo which still allows you to hear the music you are creating is the bread and butter of sight reading training.

You can practice accuracy and speed segregated from one another. For example for accuracy you could play super slow, pausing as long as you need and neglect rhythm but have 100% correct fingers and notes. You could practice speed where you merely estimate everything you do and keep going even if there are a lot of errors. Practicing the two in isolation does require some kind of teacher guidance but it's surely something you can experiment with and determine what benefits they give you yourself.

[tomp86]

Ok cool, thanks guys I'll keep it all in mind