Does anyone have any tips for learning Chopin's Ballade No. 1 in G Minor?

[setdak]

This is the longest piece I've ever attempted. I'm not really sure where to start. I've tried to find sources online on the techniques Chopin himself used to practice, but I haven't found anything. I understand Chopin's philosophies when it came to technique; I've read accounts of his students'.
Anything helps, I guess. Just any general tips for the piece?

[brogers70]

This is the longest piece I've ever attempted. I'm not really sure where to start. I've tried to find sources online on the techniques Chopin himself used to practice, but I haven't found anything. I understand Chopin's philosophies when it came to technique; I've read accounts of his students'.
Anything helps, I guess. Just any general tips for the piece?

You could look at the Cortot edition. It's in French, but his editions usually have a bunch of exercises preparatory for the pieces in question. Still under copyright in US and EU, but if you live elsewhere you can get it free on IMSLP.

Or for $9 you can get a Josh Wright tutorial on the piece. I have not used this tutorial, but I have used his tutorials for several of the Chopin Etudes and found them very helpful. https://joshwrightpiano.teachable.com/p/chopin-ballade-in-g-minor-op23

[tigerpiano1998]

I would get the Paderewski edition or the Henle edition, and just take things slowly. One learns Chopin Ballades just like he learns other pieces. The basic principles apply.

1. Fingering the passages and sticking religiously to it.
2. Practicing slowly and without pedal, paying attention to sound quality
3. Working in small sections and do not push for speed; let the speed come by itself.

[quantum]

For insight on techniques Chopin might have used, I recommend the book Chopin: Pianist and Teacher: As Seen by his Pupils by Jean-Jacques Eigeldinger.

Break the piece into small manageable sections.  Rather than study the piece in chronological order, use a non-linear workflow.  There are parts of the piece that will take longer to learn, and parts of the piece that will give you more challenges than others.  I would recommend studying these difficult sections first, and give them time to develop in your mind and your hands. 

When working on the technical aspects of this piece, always put sound first.  Never reduce an exercise to mindless hand movements.  When slow practising aim for producing beautiful tone and musical expression at all times, even if all you are practising is a scale or chords, etc. 

[franks66]

You will notice that the coda is the game decider here.

You need a solid left hand, so solid that you don't need to care much for it when playing together.

If you want a good preparation for the right hand technique practise the Etude op 10,10
But thats a beast on its own.

Last but not least play the coda with phrasing. With some breathing.
Seong-Jin Cho does that perfectly.
There a video on youtube with a comparison of different pianists, how they play the Coda.
I like Seong-Jin Cho's rendition most, because he doesn't blast through like there's no tomorrow

[anacrusis]

Last but not least play the coda with phrasing. With some breathing.
Seong-Jin Cho does that perfectly.
There a video on youtube with a comparison of different pianists, how they play the Coda.
I like Seong-Jin Cho's rendition most, because he doesn't blast through like there's no tomorrow

Funnily enough, I like the first part of the coda played very rhythmically, with a lot of forward drive. There are a few breathing moments at the end of a few of the phrases, but they are short and not many.

[franks66]

Funnily enough, I like the first part of the coda played very rhythmically, with a lot of forward drive. There are a few breathing moments at the end of a few of the phrases, but they are short and not many.

I used to think the same as a young man, and during my time at conservatory i played it like that. Con fuoco. Perhaps that's the way it's meant to be.

But now - grey-haired and a hopefully little bit wiser - i tend to like the renditions with more emphasis on phrasing and musical details more than the virtuoso ones.

I didn't like Arrau too much earlier, i prefered Horowitz. Now its vice versa.
 
But maybe that's just because i'm getting too old to blast through the 1st Ballades Coda without breathing.

Anyway, some  breathing at the end of the phrases makes the Coda a lot easier to tackle if you just start learning the piece. If you have it already in your fingers...sure, it's fun to go all in.

[anacrusis]

I used to think the same as a young man, and during my time at conservatory i played it like that. Con fuoco. Perhaps that's the way it's meant to be.

But now - grey-haired and a hopefully little bit wiser - i tend to like the renditions with more emphasis on phrasing and musical details more than the virtuoso ones.

I didn't like Arrau too much earlier, i prefered Horowitz. Now its vice versa.
 
But maybe that's just because i'm getting too old to blast through the 1st Ballades Coda without breathing.

Anyway, some  breathing at the end of the phrases makes the Coda a lot easier to tackle if you just start learning the piece. If you have it already in your fingers...sure, it's fun to go all in.

It might be an age thing! I like dashing, daring interpretations with forward drive (but still refined musically), but I know that many people prefer slightly slower, more careful and meticolous playing than I do. For example, Arrau makes me snore in most things he plays, but I know many people love him. In any case, there is no right or wrong, just different tastes!

[franks66]

It might be an age thing! I like dashing, daring interpretations with forward drive (but still refined musically), but I know that many people prefer slightly slower, more careful and meticolous playing than I do. For example, Arrau makes me snore in most things he plays, but I know many people love him. In any case, there is no right or wrong, just different tastes!

Of course. It's a matter of taste.
But (at least for me) age changed taste quiet a bit.
In my 20s i loved ferocious, furios playing. And as well listening to daring renditions (i.e. Horowitz, Argerich). And i couldn't stand slow classical movements, especially from Mozart or Haydn.

I was quite startled when i realised that i begun to love those movements
(especially in Bach and Mozart Piano Concertos).
I thought "man, now you're getting old..."

So, all fine with playing the coda in a driving, furios style.
My only point was that it may help the OP for the start to play the coda with some phrasing.
If she/he can do that confidently she/he may hit the turbo button.

[lelle]

Looking forward to the day I'll genuinely enjoy slow movements. I'm 30 but I still squirm a bit in my seat haha.

[franks66]

Just to spread a little grey-haired wisdom...
Each season has it's pros and cons.
It is most beneficial just to pick and enjoy the ripe fruits.

From my personal experience:
I enjoyed playing virtuoso pieces almost exclusively at conservatory.
Some colleagues have therefore judged me to be superficial, lacking depth.
But hey, youth is not too long. What's wrong with enjoying a little show-off while you can?
There should be enough time to study all the Brahms and Schubert poetry later on.

And really...
Where should all the depth come from in such a young life?
i have a hard time trusting all those young pianists playing Beethoven op 111 oder Schubert Bb major.

Either they have had a really bad sad childhood to be able to really feel all this depth or they have had a really good teacher who has shown them how to fake convincingly.

[brogers70]

Just to spread a little grey-haired wisdom...
Each season has it's pros and cons.
It is most beneficial just to pick and enjoy the ripe fruits.

From my personal experience:
I enjoyed playing virtuoso pieces almost exclusively at conservatory.
Some colleagues have therefore judged me to be superficial, lacking depth.
But hey, youth is not too long. What's wrong with enjoying a little show-off while you can?
There should be enough time to study all the Brahms and Schubert poetry later on.

And really...
Where should all the depth come from in such a young life?
i have a hard time trusting all those young pianists playing Beethoven op 111 oder Schubert Bb major.

Either they have had a really strange sad life to be able to really feel all this depth or they have had a really good teacher who has shown them how to fake convincingly.

I wouldn't limit it to those two choices. Another option is just that they are imaginative and empathetic and have listened to people who have had those deep experiences.

[franks66]

I wouldn't limit it to those two choices. Another option is just that they are imaginative and empathetic and have listened to people who have had those deep experiences.

Maybe there are some prodigys beyond my imagination,
who are able to empathise with a doomed Schubert and a tormented Beethoven.
At an age where the lessons of life usually have not yet struck
(unless one had an very unfortunate childhood).

Most of the sucessful young pianists don't even have time for life experience due to the amount of practising they normaly have to complete.

Then again...my idea of what the next gen pianists are capable of may be too limited.

[dinoimeri]

This is the longest piece I've ever attempted. I'm not really sure where to start. I've tried to find sources online on the techniques Chopin himself used to practice, but I haven't found anything. I understand Chopin's philosophies when it came to technique; I've read accounts of his students'.
Anything helps, I guess. Just any general tips for the piece?

Hi, setdak!

My advice is to forget about the books and start working on the piece itself. If you've already read through it, it's a good idea to divide the piece in several major parts. Then, take one of those major parts and divide it in several smaller parts and work on the quality of sound, memorising, finding the meaning of the written instructions by Chopin.

If you take a large piece and divide it in smaller modules, then it would be a much easier and more satisfying experience. It's like deconstructing the piece and then constructing it back together again. Reminds me of the old proverb: "Even a journey of a thousand miles being with just one step".

Wishing you the best of luck!
BTW, I am currently learning the First Ballade too for my upcoming recital together with his Polonaise op.53 and Rachmaninoff's First sonata.

All the best,
Dino

[lelle]

BTW, I am currently learning the First Ballade too for my upcoming recital together with his Polonaise op.53 and Rachmaninoff's First sonata.

Sorry to go off on a tangent from the original poster's topic, but super cool that you are playing Rach's first sonata. I think that work is underrated and I actually prefer it over the 2nd.

[mjames]

Just to spread a little grey-haired wisdom...
Each season has it's pros and cons.
It is most beneficial just to pick and enjoy the ripe fruits.

From my personal experience:
I enjoyed playing virtuoso pieces almost exclusively at conservatory.
Some colleagues have therefore judged me to be superficial, lacking depth.
But hey, youth is not too long. What's wrong with enjoying a little show-off while you can?
There should be enough time to study all the Brahms and Schubert poetry later on.

And really...
Where should all the depth come from in such a young life?
i have a hard time trusting all those young pianists playing Beethoven op 111 oder Schubert Bb major.

Either they have had a really bad sad childhood to be able to really feel all this depth or they have had a really good teacher who has shown them how to fake convincingly.

Chopin composed his op. 23 Ballade when he was 26 and composed all his ballades by the time he was 32. Schubert composed his last 3 sonatas when he was 31 years old.

Kinda funny you write about these works being best understood by "old men" when in most cases these works were written by young men.

[dinoimeri]

Sorry to go off on a tangent from the original poster's topic, but super cool that you are playing Rach's first sonata. I think that work is underrated and I actually prefer it over the 2nd.

Thanks, lelle!

I love this work too and I definitely agree with you - it's quite underrated.
I did learn and perform the Second sonata in many concerts, but somehow I appreciate the First one more. It's quite a challenge though - like the Third concerto without an orchestra! 

[lelle]

Chopin composed his op. 23 Ballade when he was 26 and composed all his ballades by the time he was 32. Schubert composed his last 3 sonatas when he was 31 years old.

Kinda funny you write about these works being best understood by "old men" when in most cases these works were written by young men.

Agree. Older people do have the potential of having even more lived experience and emotional experience to put into the music. But you are not too young to play a mature work by a composer if you are the same age as they were when they wrote it lol

Thanks, lelle!

I love this work too and I definitely agree with you - it's quite underrated.
I did learn and perform the Second sonata in many concerts, but somehow I appreciate the First one more. It's quite a challenge though - like the Third concerto without an orchestra! 

Yes, it looks like quite the beast. I want to learn it at some point but have not had the energy to take it on yet Hardest part seems to be to hold it together structurally and make it digestible for the listenener. There are a LOT of notes and thick textures so I feel it can easily become too much.

[dinoimeri]

Agree. Older people do have the potential of having even more lived experience and emotional experience to put into the music. But you are not too young to play a mature work by a composer if you are the same age as they were when they wrote it lol

Yes, it looks like quite the beast. I want to learn it at some point but have not had the energy to take it on yet Hardest part seems to be to hold it together structurally and make it digestible for the listenener. There are a LOT of notes and thick textures so I feel it can easily become too much.

That's true! As Van Cliburn said, we must try to find the simplicity in the complexity.
I hope you will decide to learn and play it some day - I would be happy to exchange with, and hear ideas from you.

All the best..