Self-Tuning Piano System Video

[don gilmore]

A demo of my newly-completed Self-Tuning Piano System is here:

It can be installed in any piano and tunes it in 3 minutes. It has no moving parts.

Don A. Gilmore

[lostinidlewonder]

Interesting! I'm unsure if the lifespan of the string is influenced by the constant heating and allowing the string to go out of tune every play. How long does it take to tune the entire piano with this and what kw/h does it use to maintain the tuning?

[don gilmore]

The temperatures are only around 95 F (35 C), which is still cooler than your skin, so there are no detrimental effects. It takes about 3 minutes to tune the piano.

Don Gilmore

[perfect_pitch]

The only problem is, having all the wires all over the piano. It's not aesthetically pleasing to the eye, and if you were doing recordings - you couldn't have that all over your piano.

I think if you were to talk to piano companies to see if they could actually design it into the piano itself and look a little more elegant and minimal, then you've got an award winning idea there...

...but in the way it is now - I wouldn't want all that mess over my piano.

[frodo4]

Hello!  I hope you don’t mind my preliminary thoughts after a quick listen.

I’m not sure how well your piano is in tune after being tuned by your system in the very small excerpt that you provide.  It does not appear to be in perfect tune to me, although it appears to be pretty close.  Also, to me the sound of the tuned piano is poor – for example the C#, F#, A notes on the top sound tinny to me.  Is it due to poor acoustics of your recording location and also poor-quality sound recording equipment?  Is it your piano?  What is the make and model?  It might be that your piano is perfectly tuned and the tuning does not affect the sound quality of the notes.

Any chance that you can provide the following 3 new recordings of this piece except this time the full piece (not a tiny excerpt) and this time in a new great acoustical environment on a top quality grand piano and recorded with top-notch recording equipment and performed by a fine pianist? 

3 requested recordings as described above:
1 – Untuned piano
2 – Played on your tuned piano – Show the entire tuning of the piano followed immediately by the performance (all in 1 shot)
3 – Played on the same piano tuned by a top-notch piano tuner AFTER the first 2 recordings are made.  This will allow me to hear with my own ears that your tuning system does not effect the sound of the piano in any way except for changes in pitch and tone remains unchanged.

Also, what if some of the notes are below standard pitch and some are above standard pitch?  Does your system cool the “flat” strings and heat the "sharp" strings?

Finally: Sorry for a dumb question.  I know this piece well and I know it is very famous.  Is this by Debussy and what is the name of the piece?

[frodo4]

Excerpt played here - Debussy: 2 Arabesques, L. 66: I. Premičre arabesque

Are my requests above unreasonable? 

[frodo4]

Another question:  How might tuning and untuning the piano everyday for years effect the piano, its strings and the ability of the piano to stay in tune after a regular tuning?

I tune the piano with your device for a 3 hour practice session.  After 3 minutes, the piano is in tune. I then turn off the tuner after I'm done practicing and the piano instantly snaps back out of tune?  Maybe not instantly since the heated/cooled strings will slowly go back to room temperature. However, this is repeated day after day for years.  How will this affect the piano and its strings?  Have you tried it for years?  What do piano technicians say about this?  Have you talked to a piano manufacturer?

Another question: If you only heat the strings to adjust pitch (and not cool them), then ALL the strings would need to be tuned above standard concert pitch by a piano technician BEFORE using your tuner.  If this is correct, how will having to keep ALL your piano strings ABOVE standard concert pitch affect the piano?  Will this put too much stress on the piano? 

Additional questions assuming only heat is used to adjust pitch: How high above standard concert pitch should the piano tuner tune the instrument at the start?  Semi-tone above normal?  How often will a piano tuner need to be called to tune the piano above standard pitch so the strings can be heated down to the correct pitch?   

Sorry for all my questions.  Thank you.

[frodo4]

...but in the way it is now - I wouldn't want all that mess over my piano.

Agreed.  I must disclose that I don't have a piano and I don't even play the piano.  But If I did:

1) I would first want to hear a quality recording of a few complete pieces, well played and well recorded so I can be sure the piano tuner does in fact tune the piano well.  I trust my ear on this.

2) I would want to have some assurances that the repeated tunings day after day and the requirement that the piano be initially tuned and then kept above standard concert pitch does not damage the piano or strings after many years.

3) I would need to see at least a couple fine pianists and at least one piano manufacturer endorse this product.

4) I wouldn't want all that mess over my piano.

Another question:  Does your tuner tell the user which strings are currently below standard concert pitch?  These strings would need to be manually raised above standard concert pitch before the tuning can be completed.  Example: After the initial tuning, I get a message that 6 strings need to be manually raised above concert pitch.  The exact strings are communicated to me.  I get my wrench out and tune these strings above standard concert pitch.  I then redo the tuning process again from scratch.

I wish the OP the best of luck.  He may have the beginnings of a great product here.  I will look for his responses to my concerns.

[don gilmore]

perfect_pitch:

Remember that this is a prototype. In a production unit, the sustainer rails would have covers…probably gloss black ones. The “black boxes” you see will be consolidated into a single control board, which will be located in the little cubbyhole over the third leg, under the sound board. And remember that in upright pianos (which are the majority) the system will be entirely invisible.

frodo4:

The tuning in the video has been saved from a real tuning (by Shawn Hansen, RPT). This tuning is replicated by the system with an accuracy of +/-0.1 cents. Even Shawn was amazed and heartily approved of the replication. The effect of temperature has absolutely no effect on the timbre of the strings any more than room temperature does. The temperatures are minuscule.

The automatic tuning is no different than an ordinary tuning. They’re both just a change in tension. It is no harder on the piano than a wrench tuning. In fact, it’s probably a lot easier on the pinblock, since the pins are never turned.

This piano is a 6’-2” Kawai GS-40. I bought it new in 1986. It has probably been tuned about 75 times manually. The self-tuning system was installed in it very recently (it was preceded by an experimental Story & Clark grand). I am a pianist myself. I studied piano at conservatory for sixteen years, starting at age 8. I have played for over 50 years. My piano sounds just as beautiful as it always did, especially when auto-tuned.

The piano is originally tuned by hand while the strings are warm. So, when it is switched off, all the strings consequently go sharp. The degree that they go sharp all has to do with how much you heat them during the manual tuning. I deliberately detuned this piano to sound awful before Shawn tuned it to demonstrate the system’s abilities.

The range is based on a “pool” of tuning power. The prototype has a pool of about 7500 cents total. Averaged out, that amounts to about 33 cents per string. But remember that this is a pool. So, if a given string only needs 13 cents of tuning, that leaves a remaining 20 cents that can be used by other strings. The tuning in the video only takes up about 22% of the pool, so there is plenty of range.

Don A. Gilmore

[frodo4]

frodo4:

The automatic tuning is no different than an ordinary tuning. They’re both just a change in tension. It is no harder on the piano than a wrench tuning. In fact, it’s probably a lot easier on the pinblock, since the pins are never turned.

This piano is a 6’-2” Kawai GS-40. I bought it new in 1986. It has probably been tuned about 75 times manually. The self-tuning system was installed in it very recently (it was preceded by an experimental Story & Clark grand). I am a pianist myself. I studied piano at conservatory for sixteen years, starting at age 8. I have played for over 50 years. My piano sounds just as beautiful as it always did, especially when auto-tuned.

The piano is originally tuned by hand while the strings are warm. So, when it is switched off, all the strings consequently go sharp. The degree that they go sharp all has to do with how much you heat them during the manual tuning. I deliberately detuned this piano to sound awful before Shawn tuned it to demonstrate the system’s abilities.

The range is based on a “pool” of tuning power. The prototype has a pool of about 7500 cents total. Averaged out, that amounts to about 33 cents per string. But remember that this is a pool. So, if a given string only needs 13 cents of tuning, that leaves a remaining 20 cents that can be used by other strings. The tuning in the video only takes up about 22% of the pool, so there is plenty of range.

Don A. Gilmore

Can you specifically address EACH of the below please?

1) I would first want to hear a quality recording of a few complete pieces, well played and well recorded so I can be sure the piano tuner does in fact tune the piano well.  I trust my ear on this.

Do you have available such a recording?

2) I would want to have some assurances that the repeated tunings and detunings day after day and the requirement that the piano be initially tuned and then kept above standard concert pitch does not damage the piano or strings after many years.

Do you have a statement from a piano manufacturer that no problems will arise from this?

3) I would need to see at least a couple fine pianists and at least one piano manufacturer endorse this product.

Do you have any such endorsements?

Another question:  Does your tuner tell the user which strings are currently below standard concert pitch?  These strings would need to be manually raised above standard concert pitch before the tuning can be completed.  Example: After the initial tuning, I get a message that 6 strings need to be manually raised above concert pitch.  The exact strings are communicated to me.  I get my wrench out and tune these strings above standard concert pitch.  I then redo the tuning process again from scratch.

Can you address this?

Thank you if you are able to answer these.

[don gilmore]

This video was very expensive to produce. If you're an interested manufacturer, I'm happy to invite you to come hear the system in person.

Don A. Gilmore

[frodo4]

This video was very expensive to produce. If you're an interested manufacturer, I'm happy to invite you to come hear the system in person.

Don A. Gilmore

Thank you.  My questions are answered.  I wish you the best of luck.

[frodo4]

This video was very expensive to produce. If you're an interested manufacturer, I'm happy to invite you to come hear the system in person.

Don A. Gilmore

Just brainstorming by myself.  I would like to see your product succeed if it is a worthy product.  The following is just something to consider.  This is all that I have.  Again - Best of luck to you!

1) Can you get a written statement from a piano manufacturer that use of your tuning product would not void the piano warranty on a new acoustic piano?  Below is wording used by Yamaha.  There are 40 piano manufacturers worldwide?  Best to use a 10-year warranty company if possible. 

2) There are a few fine pianists that post here.  Some might be interested in trying and using your product.  Maybe the pianist can make a recording of a few different pieces using your tuner?  Maybe the pianist will endorse your product?

Yamaha 10 year warranty on acoustic pianos
This warranty does not cover (a) damage, deterioration or
malfunction resulting from accident, negligence, misuse, abuse, improper
installation or operation or failure to follow instructions according to the Owner’s
Manual for this product; any shipment of the product (claims must be
presented to the carrier); repair or attempted repair by anyone other than
YAMAHA or an authorized YAMAHA Service Center; (b) any unit which has been
altered or on which the serial number has been defaced, modified or removed;
(c) normal wear and any periodic maintenance; (d) deterioration due to
perspiration, corrosive atmosphere or other external causes such as extremes
in temperature or humidity; (e) damages related to lightning damage or acts of
God; (f) the improper use of either certified or uncertified equipment; or (g) any
electronic or electro-mechanical devices that may be included as a part of the
piano. Any evidence of alteration, erasing or forgery of proof-of-purchase
documents will cause this warranty to be void. This warranty covers only the
Original Owner and is not transferable

[frodo4]

I now have taken the needed time of a day or so to reflect on this further in good faith. This is a totally new tuning concept to me.  I ask the OP to correct any of my possible poor assumptions or misunderstandings.

There are 2 important concepts that are working AGAINST the OP's tuning system that is shown here as I understand it.

1) Acoustic pianos operate and stay in tune the best if the temperature and humidity remain at optimal levels and are not subject to rapid changes.  The temperature and humidity would ideally remain CONSTANT and at optimal levels.

The tuning system given here introduces heat to the strings.  After the unit is turned off for the day, the strings fall gradually back to room temperature.  These changes in string temperature are done each day.  Imagine a piano kept at 70 degrees room temperature, but once a day and every day the room temperature is raised to 95 degrees and the temperature is then reset back to 70 degrees at the end of the day.  It is true that only the strings are heated.  But these strings (230 of them in a grand piano I think) become little heaters themselves and will raise the surrounding air temperature.  The OP says the strings are heated to 96 degrees, but the actual amount will be more or less depending on how high the strings are tuned over standard pitch.

2) Piano strings tend to lower in pitch (flatten) over time.  Remember, the tuning system requires that each string be at or ABOVE standard concert pitch.  This means the strings will need to be manually tuned up at some point with a wrench.

The tuning system given here can only heat strings.  This heating causes the strings to lower or flatten in pitch.  But the strings themselves are flattening over time. Therefore, we are left with the following dilemma.  Do we want to A) call a piano tuner to tune up the piano only once every say 5 years to raise the pitch of the strings to compensate for the strings flattening over time, or B) do we want to make sure that the strings are heated very little and only tiny flattening of pitch is required to daily tune the piano resulting in less stress on the piano and strings?

Case A: Call piano tuner once every est. 5 years and risk possible severe damage to your piano. 
In order to call a piano tuner maybe just once every 5 years, the piano tuner might need to manually tune the piano maybe 100 cents higher (1 semitone) than concert pitch (A = 440*2^(1/12)=466 Hz).  (I pick 20 cents drop a year because of the daily repeated tuning and detuning and heat.  It might be much more??)  After 5 years, finally some of the strings have worked their way down below concert pitch.  Remember, the tuning system requires that EACH string be at or ABOVE concert pitch.  In order to daily tune the piano down a semitone using the OPs system, maybe each string needs to be raised to 120 F??!  (OP - you tell me!) Each day - strings are heated and cooled.  Imagine the possible damage being done here!  Also, what is the cost of the electricity to tune the piano each day??  And what stress is being put on the piano and strings due to being tuned a semitone too high and then flattened to standard pitch each day??  Maybe the piano actually needs to be manually tuned up to a whole tone above standard pitch (instead of a semitone) so it does not need manually tuned for another 5 years.  Why?  The daily repeated massive downward tunings and upward detunings and heat will possibly cause the strings to drop in pitch much more than normal over time!

Case B: Call the piano tuner every est. 7 months and greatly reduce risk of damaging your piano. 
In order make sure that the strings are heated very little and only tiny flattening of pitch is required to tune the piano each day (resulting in less stress on the piano and strings), the piano owner decides to have the piano tuner manually tune the piano to the slightly sharp A = 446 Hz.  Therefore, the OP’s piano tuner maybe only needs to heat the strings to 80F – which is maybe OK – and only a very small flattening is required each day – which is maybe OK.  But in 7 months the piano needs to be manually tuned again by the piano tuner back to A = 446 Hz because the strings have flattened below standard pitch over time.  So what good is this???  Why not just call the piano tuner every 6 months and keep your temperature and humidity stable and save the cost of buying the OP system and cost of electricity to use it and skip the possible damage from using the OP's tuning system??

Case C: Something between case A and case B. 
You decide: do you want to call the tuner very little or do you want to lessen the chance that you are damaging your piano and call the piano tuner more often?

ALSO – How well does this tuning system tune the piano?  I need to hear several complete pieces performed to form an opinion.  Why doesn’t the OP have a recording made and ready?

For these reasons and more, I cannot recommend that anyone buy this tuning system.  It is up to each person to decide for themselves.  If you decide to buy the system, be sure to ask how this will affect your piano warranty if you have one.  Also, be sure to have ALL your questions answered by the OP to your satisfaction.  Do not accept any non-answers!  ASK FOR REFERENCES FROM OTHERS THAT BOUGHT THE SYSTEM.  ASK FOR 3-5 REFERENCES I SUGGEST!  What kind of warranty is given to his product?  What is the electrical cost to operate the system daily for 2 hours?  I can think of dozens of more questions.

Best of luck to everyone!  Happy piano practicing! 

[frodo4]

Has anyone seen Don Gilmore?  Does anyone know if he is available for comment?

[frodo4]

Notice how the OP doesn’t answer questions. But he has the right to selectively answer questions.  Does anyone believe the OP is being intellectually honest about his product? However, he has no obligation to be intellectually honest.  And doesn't the OP have the right to promote a product that might be dangerous to the health of your piano?  Of course he does. The OP will be rewarded appropriately for his product in the long run - so I am not too concerned.  Bottom line: caveat emptor

OP: I am still willing to discuss this with you in an objective manner.  I'll look for your post here.

Intellectual honesty is an applied method of problem solving, characterized by an unbiased, honest attitude, which can be demonstrated in a number of different ways:
- One's personal beliefs or politics do not interfere with the pursuit of truth;
- Relevant facts and information are not purposefully omitted even when such things may contradict one's hypothesis;
- Facts are presented in an unbiased manner, and not twisted to give misleading impressions or to support one view over another;

Snake oil salesman: Someone who sells, promotes, or is a general proponent of some valueless or fraudulent cure, remedy, or solution.

[brogers70]

At a certain point you just have to trust that readers can think for themselves. He made his pitch, you raised questions, he responded, you responded; after that I think folks can evaluate the arguments presented.

[frodo4]

At a certain point you just have to trust that readers can think for themselves. He made his pitch, you raised questions, he responded, you responded; after that I think folks can evaluate the arguments presented.

Thank you!  You are absolutely correct.  caveat emptor - let the buyer beware!  All will work out in the end. 

If his tuner has damaged a piano where it can be proven by a preponderance of the evidence in a court of law, the piano owner will collect damages.  Example: If we have a case where the piano no longer can hold a standard tuning for more than a month because the strings have been un-stretched and stretched over and over and a professional piano tuner and/or other piano expert can testify that in his opinion, the strings were damaged due to the OP's tuner and need to be replaced at a cost of $6,500 and other parts were damaged at a cost of $4000 and this is enough to convince a judge or jury, then the piano owner will be made whole.  If the piano owner loses the case, well, he should have been more careful before buying the tuner.  It all works out in the end!

Ask for multiple references!

Where are the endorsments by reputable pianists and a piano manufacturer?  None?? - Then beware!! 

[lostinidlewonder]

It would only go to court if it was guaranteed that the device would cause no ill effects to the piano ever. Without that what case so you have? Nothing. Without that guarantee however I don't see many people using it. Logically going in an out of tune constantly certainly doesn't seem healthy for the piano.

[frodo4]

It would only go to court if it was guaranteed that the device would cause no ill effects to the piano ever. Without that what case so you have? Nothing.

Thank you for this post!  However, your first statement is not true - at least in the USA.  I'm not sure what the laws are where you live.   

In the USA, there is an implied warranty of merchantability that means the goods are merchantable and conform to a reasonable buyer's expectations. Most consumer products have an implied warranty of merchantability. This warranty makes the assumption that a good or product works for its intended purpose.

There is an implied assumption that a piano tuner will not damage the piano.  But you need to prove that the tuner damaged the piano.  You have your experts come in and testify.  The OP has his experts come in and testify (if he can find any).  If damages are at or below the small claims court limits for the state you live in (I am assuming USA here), then a judge will decide the case, otherwise a jury will decide.  You need to show preponderance of the evidence - i.e. you need to prove that something is more likely than not.  If experts can prove that it is more likely than not that the pin block and strings were damaged by the tuner and need replaced, and the cost to do this is $22000, you will be awarded $22000 plus the cost of the tuning device itself (maybe $1000?) plus possible recovery of legal fees.

Logically going in an out of tune constantly certainly doesn't seem healthy for the piano.

I agree.  Don't forget also the daily changes in temperature. 

Also, can you imagine raising 230 strings as they flatten over time?  You tune the strings 30 cents above standard pitch to start - this will last for maybe 18 months as strings naturally flatten over time. You would need to call a tuner again in 18 months. 

If you chose to tune the piano above standard pitch (above A=440Hz) yourself, each week after a year or so, you would need to first find the flat strings then manually tune them above standard pitch - maybe 30 cents above standard pitch.  Each week you do maybe 10 strings on average as they fall below standard pitch.  The strings will not all fall below standard pitch at the same time. So, you do this for maybe 23 weeks - a couple strings 1 week, a dozen or so strings the next week as they fall flat etc.  Then it needs to be repeated again in another year.  What a nightmare!

Also, does this thing even tune the piano well???  I am not at all convinced that it does.  Others on his youtube channel have been asking for a much longer sample than the 7 second clip that the OP gives.  What would an intellectually honest inventor do when given this request?  He would apologize for not having a 15-30 minute sample of his tuned piano recorded and HE WOULD IMMEDIATLEY WORK TO PROVIDE THIS RECORDING!! 

Ideally, AFTER the 15-30 minutes of piece performance of pieces in different keys, he would add a demonstration of all the octaves slowly played - plus whatever else a piano tuner would like to hear. If he was truly trying to show all: Ideally, the video would first start with a demonstration of being out of tune then show the entire tune-up (3 minutes OP says) followed by the pieces and octaves - maybe a 30-45 minute video all done in 1 take without any editing. Cost to do this? Zero dollars?  He can do it all himself!

[lostinidlewonder]

Thank you for this post!  However, your first statement is not true - at least in the USA.  I'm not sure what the laws are where you live. 

I do know America is a litigation type country and people sue left right and centre even if there are no grounds to even do so.

In the USA, there is an implied warranty of merchantability that means the goods are merchantable and conform to a reasonable buyer's expectations. Most consumer products have an implied warranty of merchantability. This warranty makes the assumption that a good or product works for its intended purpose.

This product does not make any official claims about how safe it is to use, it is an experimental type device, so you should understand it comes with risks to use such things. Unless you are an actual lawyer just throwing these terms down is meaningless, you do realize that "implied warranty of merchantability" only holds unless the product excludes or modifies it. There is no point in discussing law here in detail I really dont think anyone cares (I certainly don't), it is logical however that trying to sue in this case will just waste your time and money.

There is an implied assumption that a piano tuner will not damage the piano.  t you need to prove
that the tuner damaged the piano.  You have your experts come in and testify. 

You must have a lot of money to burn to hire experts to testify for you. Proving something is not easy, you better prove your piano is in perfect working order to start with and then clearly monitor everything with irrefutable science. Do you really have that much time on your hands?

The OP has his experts come in and testify (if he can find any).  If damages are at or below the small claims court limits for the state you live in (I am assuming USA here), then a judge will decide the case, otherwise a jury will decide. 

Again this is a big waste of money and waste of the legal systems time.

You need to show preponderance of the evidence - i.e. you need to prove that something is more likely than not.  If experts can prove that it is more likely than not that the pin block and strings were damaged by the tuner and need replaced, and the cost to do this is $22000, you will be awarded $22000 plus the cost of the tuning device itself (maybe $1000?) plus possible recovery of legal fees.

Unless the producer of the product says you better use this product at your own risk. Then all your legal action is nullified.

In any case I don't think it's worth your time to get so involved in this, there are more important things to worry about than imaginary litigation for an experimental device that is not even for sale yet which might cause damage in an imaginary scenario.

[frodo4]

Deleted post

[frodo4]

Trying to determine if the OP's piano tuner will cause damage to a piano is an important part of any discussion about his product!!  If he sells his product, he will not sell many if he asks buyers to sign a sales contract saying "We are not liable for any damage to your piano that may be caused by use of our piano tuner".  Without this signed paper the product will come with an implied warranty of merchantability as far as I can tell. 

Bottom line: The OP would be best to talk to a reputable attorney about this and consult with reputable experts in piano construction and maintenance to determine if the product will be safe for the piano (i.e. it won't damage the piano with long term use).  I hope we can all agree on this.


OP: You need to be in search of the truth here.  You will need to recommend to buyers the standard amount of cents to tune the strings above standard pitch to do the safety determination.  E.g. 30 cents.

Extreme example: Tune all the strings 400 cents above standard.  This is a major 3rd above above standard pitch where A = 440*2^(400/1200)=554 Hz.  You will need to heat the strings to 180F = 82C (you tell me) to heat them down to standard pitch.  I'll take this one - NOT SAFE FOR PIANO.

[frodo4]

In any case I don't think it's worth your time to get so involved in this, there are more important things to worry about than imaginary litigation for an experimental device that is not even for sale yet which might cause damage in an imaginary scenario.

Lostinidlewonder -  You are correct and I do have more important things that I am supposed to be doing now.  Also, I know the OP is not looking for any help from me.  I really should be moving on for now.  Thank you!