How do you push the edge? Physically, I mean

[Bob]

How do you grow a muscle?  I find it extremely easy to wear myself out.  I don't realize it while I'm in the moment of practicing, but afterwards I can feel sore.  I'm thinking in terms of any kind of muscle development.  Is it good to push yourself so that afterward you are really worn out?  Or maybe just do that occasionally?  Is the ultimate solution to record your abilities and give yourself a careful push, say 10% more one day, then time to rest then another 10% push later on?  Does anyone worry about this?  Or is it that you just keep on keeping on, and eventually with the pushes and the times you slack off that things get better in the long run?  That daily life will push you and cause you times where you will push less and heal up.

To make it more on the physical side, I've lifted weights.  I can lift them daily and wear out the muscles so much that I know I don't really get any stronger -- I actually get weaker.  I can be detemined and have will power and I see that in the long run I really just wear myself down.  I see that daily work is good with an occasional push followed by a period of relaxation and resetting.  There are times that I do not weight lifting and then lift things that are much heavier for me.  With periodic brief intense pushes like that I do get stronger.  I have stressed things and then given my body plenty of time to rest and recover and capture that new strength, as opposed to doing daily work that seems to wear me down in the long run.

*** Please be aware this is not a weight lifting thread. ***

I see the same patterns whether I am lifting a weight or whether I am practicing.  It's a matter of pushing the edge and capturing that new area into my standard abilities.  I would like to be working as efficiently as possible.  I don't know whether daily work is good, whether a hard push followed by lots of rest is better, or what.... I would like to keep putting in effort, but I'm confused about the best way to do this.

Hopefully, this makes sense.  Again, I'm not talking about weight lifting.  I'm talking about physical development -- being able to control your limits in terms of strength and speed.  It applies to playing the piano, staying healthy, lifting weights, running... anything physical. 

Thanks for any advice you can offer.  I'm not intersted in being musical.  I'm concerned about being able to expand my abilities.  In part this is for piano playing and in part for just staying physically fit and getting in better shape.  I think it's the same process either way. 

Thanks for your ideas.  I'm wondering if this is same idea I've written about in the past.  I can't keep all these thoughts in mind at once.  Sorry.  I think this is the same idea as my "Ten clicks faster" thread from a long time ago.  Maybe I've already figured it out and don't remember.  I wonder if this is one of those concerns that only I will able to answer to satisfy myself.  If that's so, thanks for any ideas you can throw out to help me figure this thing out.




More thoughts....
Step One:  Stabalize.  Get to the point that you can perform at a certain level consistently.  This point will be much lower than what you can do out of the blue.  Then push and rest (but keep working at a certain level even while resting) and reset your control.    I think this might be the solution I was looking for.

[pianonut]

yes!  i think they should have a ymca for pianists.  instead of the monotonous tv watching...we could work out, talk, and watch pianists on dvd's.  then we can also prove once and for all who really works out.

my workout today was a brain work out.  i read pages and pages about sturm und drang.  i'm drained physically and mentally from the turning back and forth from my ice cream bar to the little tiny letters (who can really read fine print for hours and not need ice cream?)  anyway, i used to be really skinny.  then sometime in january everything stopped fitting.  i went to the ymca for one day and worked out for 2 hours.  then i did nothing for another month.  the rest really helps me (hahaha)

just think.  if we had a pianists ymca, there could be a teaching of the alexander techniqe (pianos around the room after working out) and trained teachers to help you relax as you should.

[puma]

   Bob, I think the analogy of weight lifting for piano practicing and improving technique certainly holds.  I approach piano in a somewhat similar fashion - what have I learned, what can I do without exerting myself, when do I need to push.  How should I heal, how long should it take? etc.  I used to do heavy weight lifting but found it didn't adapt to piano and guitar so well so now I just do it to stay fit.
   You mentioned something about feeling "worn out" after practicing.  You might get a similar feeling from weight lifting, but especially when you push beyond your capabilities.  I used to feel "worn out", too, on the piano after only playing a little bit.  I tried to discover the problem - mostly it was just that I was developing as much as I was able to develop.  I wanted and needed to push farther, so I did, and the first few times I felt tired.  But then I got used to it, and now do a much "heavier" workout - the same applies to weight lifting, sports in general, too, I think.   If you're a baseball player and all you did was running and swinging you'd be fit - but not ready to play big leagues.   If you want to raise the bar, you're going to have to raise it - but then keep it up and continue at that pace once you raise it or you won't progress anywhere.  One of the factors may just be time - you may find it difficult to fit everything in one hour.  So maybe you need more time to practice so you can do the new stuff and polish up, too.  Sometimes you need to rotate muscles - sometimes you need to rotate pieces.  If I want to finish a certain piece by a certain time I'll practice everyday - but even if it's 6 hours a day on one piece, I always find that some time away to absorb the material: 90% of the time that helps - and it gets better.  Just don't rest up too much - or when you're resting one part of the body (or one tune, perhaps) work on another one that needs development. 
   If you're having technical problems, ask yourself why?  Why is this giving me difficulty?  Work at it.  Analyze.  Try again.  Push yourself a lot if need be, but you shouldn't have to kill yourself to get the basics down.  If you're fumbling on what seems to be something you should understand, you'll need to do some other work before that technical bit comes into mastery.
   Good luck

[anda]

baby steps - very little by very little

[DarkWind]

I've talked to my teacher about endurance several times. It's a strong point that he makes. First of all, if you are getting really exhausted while piano playing, it all leads to relative causes. The main reason is that you need to relax. You need to have your hands and arms loose, but not as to be slouchy or something, they have to be steady, yet relaxed and flexible. My teacher compares the finger on the piano key like your foot on the floor. When you walk, you don't think of the effort required, or slam your foot on the ground. You merely know how much you need. So, he keeps teaching me how to walk on the piano. You should know how to press the keys down all the way with the smallest of effort. Second problem is tension. Make your wrists a little looser, don't keep them tightened up. Third problem is probably the lack of shoulder or arm movement. Think of the part right before the should as the general. Then the shoulder itself a leader of a subdivision, then keep going down to the arm, and the fingers are the foot soldiers. Which do you think play the largest part? Basically, if you move your shoulder, you create a lot more movement than simply using your fingers. Therefore, incorporate elbows, shoulders, and the like to maximize piano performance.

[Bob]

I'm just wondering about the most efficient way to get from point A to point B.

I sit down one day and find I can play a little faster so I do and it's nice.  Later on during the day or the next morning, I feel sore.  Don't do that again, but boy, it was nice to play like that.

I pick up a heavier weight and find I can lift it.  It's nice.  I do it the next day and the next.  Then, ooo...  sore.  Don't do that again, but boy it was sure nice while it lasted.

I'm wondering how I can make that next level something I can do everyday.


Another part of the solution:  Stepping up to that next level sucks.  It IS painful.  You can do a hard push and then a 'hard rest.'  method #2:  Do slightly more everyday.  Just be careful not to wear down over time.

[pianonut]

wearing down?  that's where the spiritual element comes in, i think.  rest is good.  take a day.  read a (good) book, go for a walk, think about things you never seem to have time for during the week.  then, in the evening go back to it and you'll be surprisingly refreshed.  repetitive injury can only come when you are constantly at something 24/7.  (here i am typing at this hour )

[xvimbi]

I'm just wondering about the most efficient way to get from point A to point B.

I sit down one day and find I can play a little faster so I do and it's nice.  Later on during the day or the next morning, I feel sore.  Don't do that again, but boy, it was nice to play like that.

I pick up a heavier weight and find I can lift it.  It's nice.  I do it the next day and the next.  Then, ooo...  sore.  Don't do that again, but boy it was sure nice while it lasted.

I'm wondering how I can make that next level something I can do everyday.


Another part of the solution:  Stepping up to that next level sucks.  It IS painful.  You can do a hard push and then a 'hard rest.'  method #2:  Do slightly more everyday.  Just be careful not to wear down over time.

You have probably heard me say this in the past: I don't believe in the strength myth. Since you have been working out quite a lot, I am convinced you have more strength than necessary to play any piece in the repertoire and then move the piano two floors up. If playing one piece gives you sore muscles, your technique must be flawed. In other words, you are wasting too much energy, because your coordination is not well developed. I am convinced that if one would start out with perfect technique, one would never get sore muscles. Little kids never complain about sore muscles. I believe all muscle problems will go away when one has mastered to avoid co-contraction, excessive force, awkward positions and static force. There is no need to develop specific muscles through dedicated exercises. Muscle strengthening happens automatically, while one builds up repertoire. Focus on coordination, not strength.

[shasta]

My teacher compares the finger on the piano key like your foot on the floor. When you walk, you don't think of the effort required, or slam your foot on the ground. You merely know how much you need. So, he keeps teaching me how to walk on the piano....

Yes, I agree and like this analogy very much. An important ability for pianists to have is to be able to relax extremely quickly in those millisecond intervals when they are not actively depressing a key.

One should not be "sore" after playing piano --- You are playing the piano, not bench-pressing it!!  Sorry, but if someone is "sore," then they are not playing with the correct technique.  Something is off, either an aspect of their body motion, or posture, or tension, or fingering, or bench height, or attack angle... something is off.

[Bob]

I don't just mean strength.  It goes for speed too.

There is a "good soreness" that happens when you push the right muscles.  You push them, they heal up, you can play faster/longer/etc.  Like forearm muscle soreness -- those muscles.  You push them and know the next day that although those muscles are a little sore, you have pushed them correctly and they will heal up stronger.  If the hands are sore, that's not good (most likely). 

Coordination will help too of course.  But I'm thinking in terms of just developing more physical ability. 

Say you had perfect coordination (so that you didn't need to focus on coordination anymore) and you wanted to increase speed.  There would still be some pushing involved to get to that next level of speed (being physically able to play faster).


If I were lifting a weight, my bicep gets sore (in a good way).  I know that it will heal up and I will get stronger.  But how do I know I'm getting stronger in the most efficient way?  ie Is this the fastest way to develop physically?  Can I do this better and save time?

[shasta]

There is a "good soreness" that happens when you push the right muscles.  You push them, they heal up, you can play faster/longer/etc. 

I think you are HOPING that you can play faster/long/etc.

Bob, how is it that young musicians (children, teenagers) and even adults of very slight frames successfully execute demanding pieces?  Do you honestly think Kissin was doing one-finger pushups and curls prior to performing his chopin concertos when he was 12?

Say you had perfect coordination (so that you didn't need to focus on coordination anymore) and you wanted to increase speed.  There would still be some pushing involved to get to that next level of speed (being physically able to play faster).

The only thing being "pushed" when playing faster is the metronome.  I would argue that one needs to be more relaxed and play with a greater lightness of touch in order to execute greater speed.

[ted]

I have to go against the drift of this thread. I've never "pushed the edge physically" and I've always been able to play anything I wanted to at whatever speed I've wanted to for as long as I've wanted to. I've never had soreness after playing, even following a session on my practice clavier. It might seem to an observer that good players have power and strength but I think what most of them have is highly developed flexibility, agility, concentration and internal relaxation.

I don't know about you people but the thought of a piano gym turns me right off in a big way - next thing we'd have races to see who could play the fastest thirds, or some similar absurdity. Here's Billy Bashem, the gold medallist in the mens' five minute bravura octave thump. Fanny Foozlefingers has just chopped 0.5 seconds off the world speed record for Feux Follets.

No, I don't think that's a direction I wish to contemplate.

[pianonut]

ok.  the gym is too competitive (most musicians aren't really that competitive nowdays.  you know where you stand when you hear someone else.  you just take your place.)

my own repertoire "gym"  would be brahm's paganini variations (i learned all of them on my own - not to say i played them as well as i could have if i had learned them with a teacher - but, they were good for the fingers and stamina)  before that, i learned the walstein.  those two pieces were challenging.  i always remembered barry douglas playing mussorsky's pictures.  so now, i am making harmony the workout.  if you can remember all the interesting chords, your mind has expanded like a muscle.  also, you can refine pedalling.  that is a muscle too (ankle) and quick pedalling takes quick coordination, also.

[pianonut]

ps  i agree with Ted about relaxing (even when working a difficult piece).  if you start getting sore, stop!  it's not that great to practice with tension.  stop, relax, come back later.

when i was practicing the brahm's paganini variations, i would take a measure or two of the thirds or sixths and just play them really slowly.  it wasn't a huge workout, but it worked to help strengthen my hand/fingers over time.

[Bob]

I agree relaxing is part of it.  But it does take some pushing to get to that next level of playing?  I'm trying to figure out the straightest line from A to B for this, to strengthen over time.

I'm not really thinking of creating a piano gym.  That wasn't my intent with this thread.

Yes, I am hoping to play faster.  I know I can do this eventually.  I would like to streamline the process and be sure that the things I am doing are really contributing and are not wasting my time.

The same thing applies to running since someone mentioned the walking idea.  Yes, walking is not all muscle strength.  But how would you go about running faster than you can now?  What's the most efficient way to increase the speed at which you can run?

Another example...  I pick up a piece of piano music.  It's far too difficult for me now.  I think to myself, "Maybe I can start working on this in a year if I have a little more technique."  I know that if I work on it now, I will just end up playing it nearly up to tempo, but not really mastering it.  I know that I can isolate the technical skills required to play to play the piece and work on those and that in time I will be able to play that piece the right way (ie having the technique in place).  I want to work on the piece as soon as possible, so I'm wondering how I can get those technical skills in place as soon as possible.  I could just work on the piece, but that really just turns a piece of literature into an etude and I hate playing a piece poorly. 

So it's really an issue of not having a physical skill, be that strength or endurance or whatever.  And it really doesn't have to be limited to piano playing.  It's about building physical strength and endurance in any area really -- exercise, running, daily life, general health, weight lifting, etc.

[Torp]

Bob,

Just a few thoughts....

As long as people have started analogies to running, walking, etc., I figure I'll throw my 2 cents worth in.  My perspecitve here will be related to training for a marathon, of which I've ran 3 (nothing spectacular from many people's perspectives, but I learned a few things that might apply here).

First of all, just completing a marathon takes a certain amount of commitment and a certain level of training.  In order to develop that level of training I have found the best way is to have a training plan.  This training plan works on an overall goal (i.e. completing the marathon within a specified time) and then it breaks the goal down into various training phases that attempt to accomplish certain things.

Running a marathon is not a sprint (well, at least not for me).  However, many of the mechanics involved in sprinting are the same as the mechanics involved in running for hours.  So, some of my training consists of sprints.  These training sessions usually occur about once a week.  During these sprint sessions my main focus is not necessarily on speed, it is on trying to understand how to run more efficiently.  The natural result of increased efficiency is increased speed.  Sprint sessions also occur over various distances for each session, i.e. week 1 is 100 meters, week 2 is 200 meters, etc. up through a "sprint" distance of 1600 meters.  This cycle takes about a month to complete; then the cycle repeats.  I have yet to complete a cycle like this without having my time drop in each subsequent cycle.

Another typical running work out is a concept called fartlek training.  This concept deals with non-standard intervals.  In other words, you're out running down the road and you decide to "pick up the pace" for a bit.  Then you back it off and keep running at the prior "comfortable" pace.  Over time, the comfortable pace slowly increases.

There are many other "workouts" but the gist of any workout is to isolate a particular part of your running technique so you can focus on it to the exclusion of all the other running variables (in actuality you're almost always working on more than one thing at a time, after all, every workout requires a certain level of concentration on your breathing).

"Long runs" are the time where you put together all of the variables from the different training phases and you work on them as a whole.  Since the long runs are at a slower pace than the other training sessions, you shouldn't have to "think" as hard about the variables and you can just run.

As with any analogy these ideas can fall apart under sharp scrutiny.  However, the main points I want to make are:

Have a specific plan/goal - this may seem trivial, but I have found that specific, written goals carry with them an immense amount of power.

Speed training ought to be cycled.  As the distance increases over which you're trying to "sprint" the speed "must" decrease.  However, the next time you come back to the shorter distance you should be able to increase the speed.  Also, the idea of the training is not to increase speed, but rather to increase efficiency.  Better efficiency automaticlly leads to better speed.

Final point, I am not a world class marathoner or piano player.  Take my thoughts for what they cost you to read them 

Jef

[ted]

I've never really been able to learn anything properly in a serial fashion. I just start playing whatever I want to and, after a while, it somehow seems to come right. Mind you, I'm not driven by deadlines, I just enjoy my music and accommodate the physical side to the enjoyment. My only physical discipline as such is a few minutes at the practice clavier on five or six ounces each day. Once at the piano I don't do any physical work per se at all - I play the piano to make music and forget about technique.

Yesterday, for what the fact is worth, would have been a typical weekend day. I set up my recording apparatus in the morning and made recordings of Johnson's "Carolina Shout" and Waller's "Gladyse". Then I worked on fixing the several musical holes I could hear in these. Then I played through half a dozen Chopin studies and a dozen or so Scott rags. I had a break and then commenced improvisation on an idea I had thought of in the garden the day before. The improvisation proved satisfying and I spent the rest of the day shopping with my wife and painting bits of the house. In the evening, as usual, I launched straight into solid improvisation for an hour or two. If I get some notion worth thinking about I write it on a scribbler pad I keep on the piano where I shall see it next time. Around midnight I have the daily practice clavier session, although lately I've been doing this early in the morning.

I don't consciously feel that I am "pushing" anything but, even at my age, I suddenly find insights and improvements have taken place. So I don't know what I do really - I guess to most people I must seem a lazy under-achiever, and perhaps I am.

[pianonut]

lazy underachiever!    you don't worry about time to spare.  obviously you enjoy what you do! i think similarly.  little bits during the day, when i can get it in.  and, in the evening when everything is quiet (either study or practice).  lately it's been study.  somehow, i like this method better for most days because it is the most realistic.  we could try to tune out our families, or change priorities - but then we would turn very inward and only know things about piano and nothing else.  plus, the several times i've stayed up past midnight practicing - my husband couldn't sleep for worrying.  and, the next day i am an absolute zombie.  there have been times, when i practice too long and don't even remember memorized sections of what i practiced.  didn't chopin say not to practice more than an hour or two at a time?  he was probably right.

[pianonut]

ps  wish i could hear your 'Carolina Shout.'  my teacher would really get a laugh if i tied it into 'sturm und drang.'  did Johnson record this piece?  you know, I had a James Johnson as a piano teacher in Fairbanks, Alaska.  Is this the same James Johnson, or a different one?  He had very large hands (the biggest of any pianist i've seen -excepting Brown who i only saw in concert).  He could easily reach very long stretches of intervals and wrote in very immaculate cursive writing.  (It's very very cold in Fairbanks - the air freezes when you breath in sometimes and it hurts to breath without a scarf over your mouth to warm the air).  The long periods of darkness are good for musicians and mathematicians (lots of engineers study up there).

[pianonut]

nevermind about James Johnson, I think the one you are referring to is a local composer here on the east coast.  am wondering if the other James Johnson is still at U of A in Fairbanks?

[pianonut]

wow.  was i way off.  james johnson from 1910.  yes.  that makes more sense, considering what he was writing jazz piano that fits that time period.  stride piano (left hand reaching way down) and very complex rhythms!  how do you play this?  it sounds very difficult.  i once played 'ain't misbehavin' and that took some practice, but this is to-the-moon.

leroy anderson is one my favorite (relaxed listening) composers.  i like his piano concerto (i think the only one he wrote).  i have to learn it soon instead of just talking about it.

[ted]

Pianonut:

This is the volume I used - the Scivales transcriptions - very good. It's easy enough to play the notes of Carolina Shout, but the chief difficulty lies in the different rhythmic accentuations - lovely piece though. I have two recordings of Johnson playing it and they differ considerably. I wasn't too keen on his intro and coda so I stuck my own in - but that's okay, you can do this with stride - part of the fun.

https://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store/smp_detail.html?sku=WB.PF0693&cart=33179214782144972&searchtitle=Sheet%20Music

[xvimbi]

All this reminds me of the discussions with Nick and Boliver about the merits of strength for playing faster. I'll repeat my argument:

Playing fast is not determined by the speed with which a key is pressed down (this determines the loudness). Pressing the key down faster would be a matter of strength. Speed is determined by the delay between successive notes. So, in order to play faster, one has to learn to make the delay shorter. This involves learning how to relax as soon as a key has been depressed, how to get ready for the next note, and how to efficiently travel to the next key. None of these aspects has to do with strength. Even an extended two-finger trill or an octave passage can be mastered quite easily without having to build up strength, as long as the coordination works well.

Strength does have its merits, though. In case of injury, one usually heals faster if the muscles are well developed. It's also good for moving the piano around.

So again, the focus of pianistic practice should be on coordination over strength. Building up strength doesn't hurt (well, it does apparently), but it's not that important.

[pianonut]

i think where i've used the 'muscle' part is in coordination and playing evenly.  i liked your comment about using muscles to move the piano. hahaha  that's probably the other reason.  and, what is said about quick delay.  lifting your fingers takes muscles, so if you practice this little bit of lifting in finger exercises (moderately) you can coordinate two fingers (thirds, sixths) and be able to play them together.

i find chopin very difficult.  i think the evenness is what gets me.  one person i knew that played chopin very well had very smooth, non-muscular hands (but strong).  she willed them into such different shapes when she played (and i thought she must have taken time to determine how her hand would be placed over each passage).  it seemed like she was playing more on top of the keyboard than on the keys.  like the hand swirl of a magician before a rabbit is pulled out.  i don't quite get it, but i appreciate it.  i think a lot of it is thinking ahead.  i find very fast, constantly changing notes to be the most difficult in repertoire because you don't get any breaks to get a 'grip.'  if you make one or two note mistakes, you end up in a different harmony (repeating the beginning) and have to play those pages until you get to your spot again. 

[musicsdarkangel]

I know for a fact that muscle has little to do with piano playing.

Do NOT weightlift for piano. 


I met an internationally renowned pianist (who teaches at Liszt academy) named Csaba Kireli, and he gave me a masterclass.

He had probably the smallest arms I have ever seen in my life, and he played about 5 Hungarian Rhapsodies with unltimate power in octaves and thirds/sixths/whatever.

It has nothing to do with muscle.

[rodrk352]

To make it more on the physical side, I've lifted weights.  I can lift them daily and wear out the muscles so much that I know I don't really get any stronger -- I actually get weaker...   I really just wear myself down.  I see that daily work is good with... a period of relaxation and resetting...  given my body plenty of time to rest and recover and capture that new strength, as opposed to doing daily work that seems to wear me down in the long run.

*** Please be aware this is not a weight lifting thread. ***

    This isn't a weightlifting thread, but you make sense from a weightlifting standpoint. I mean, there are plenty of people who overtrain at the gym and don't eat enough good food to sustain muscle mass. Some of them train themselves into sickness, or become anorexic. But getting back to playing the piano.
     If you are a dedicated body builder, you can't leave the gym and expect to play in front of an audience that same night. You'll be too tired, and if you used your arms during the workout probably your muscles will still be quivering. As for running, of course you don't want to get off the track, shower, and then play in front of an audience. You need time to come down after the workout. I know this from personal experience. Anyway there is no correlation between good bodily health and good piano playing. Think of how many composers had very poor health, had their lives cut short from disease, yet played the piano wonderfully. And think of the many musicans who played their instruments until a very old age when they could barely walk up the stairs. The reason you want to stay in shape has nothing to do with being a better pianist. There are people who practice compulsively, just as there a people who weight train compulsively. Nothing wrong with that unless it adversely affects your life in other ways.

[lostinidlewonder]

I like to draw from Tai Chi teachings that the body is mostly water, so to add excessvie muscle only makes the body tenser, tighter, unable to allow energy to flow effectively. It is the same with piano i believe, because you see all the masters of the instrument play with such watery lighteness in their hand, no matter how vicious sections become. That is why i think that the Russian school, which teaches a lot of loud chords, big sounds boom boom boom, no always is the best way to become the best you can. Those things need endurance, but i think it comes a lot more from efficiency of playing rather than maintaining inefficient playing and building muscle to counteract it. If that makes sense.