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Topic: Notation Question  (Read 5220 times)

Offline questdog

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Notation Question
on: August 07, 2023, 12:55:40 AM
What does the diagonal line between the notes in the attached image mean?
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Offline brogers70

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Re: Notation Question
Reply #1 on: August 07, 2023, 01:10:26 AM
Some context might help, but in Baroque music the diagonal line between the A and the C would mean that you play F-A-B-C-F, as an arpeggiated chord but release the B immediately after striking it and hold the rest of the notes. Your final chord, there, dmin7, does not look like the last chord in a typical Baroque piece, so I'm not 100% sure.
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Offline questdog

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Re: Notation Question
Reply #2 on: August 07, 2023, 01:18:56 AM
Quote from: brogers70 on August 07, 2023, 01:10:26 AM
Some context might help, but in Baroque music the diagonal line between the A and the C would mean that you play F-A-B-C-F, as an arpeggiated chord but release the B immediately after striking it and hold the rest of the notes. Your final chord, there, dmin7, does not look like the last chord in a typical Baroque piece, so I'm not 100% sure.

It's the final chord in Beethoven's organ fugue.  It is a D Major chord; the top staff is not a treble clef, but one (I forget the name) where C is the bottom line.
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Offline keypeg

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Re: Notation Question
Reply #3 on: August 07, 2023, 02:22:58 AM
Quote from: questdog on August 07, 2023, 01:18:56 AM
It's the final chord in Beethoven's organ fugue.  It is a D Major chord; the top staff is not a treble clef, but one (I forget the name) where C is the bottom line.
Soprano clef, with a C-clef thingy?
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Offline questdog

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Re: Notation Question
Reply #4 on: August 07, 2023, 02:59:16 AM
Quote from: keypeg on August 07, 2023, 02:22:58 AM
Soprano clef, with a C-clef thingy?

I don't what a thingy is, but it's just some clef indicating that C is the bottom line (where E is on the treble clef).  But that is not important.  What I want to know is what the diagonal lines mean and I think brogers70 is probably right.
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Offline keypeg

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Re: Notation Question
Reply #5 on: August 07, 2023, 08:15:50 AM
Quote from: questdog on August 07, 2023, 02:59:16 AM
I don't what a thingy is, but it's just some clef indicating that C is the bottom line (where E is on the treble clef).  But that is not important.  What I want to know is what the diagonal lines mean and I think brogers70 is probably right.
Is the bottom clef the usual bass clef?

The C clef is the "thingy".  In that position it would be the soprano clef.  This:

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Offline brogers70

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Re: Notation Question
Reply #6 on: August 07, 2023, 11:56:27 AM
That's interesting. Bach used the soprano clef a lot, maybe always, for the upper staff in keyboard music, but I didn't know Beethoven ever did that. Maybe he was trying to be accommodating to the organists who, in his time, might have preferred the soprano clef over the treble.
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Offline themeandvariation

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Re: Notation Question
Reply #7 on: August 07, 2023, 05:46:54 PM
For this, - it being a fugue - I would hazard a guess that the diagonal line is indicated to separate the 4 voices - giving two voices for each - two bass, two tenor, two alto, two soprano. If the last chord was a half note, this designation could be accomplished with the direction of the stem (which I've used in my own fugue writings). It being a whole note, this designation isn't possible. So perhaps that is the use of the diagonal.
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Offline lelle

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Re: Notation Question
Reply #8 on: August 08, 2023, 09:45:46 PM
Normally in Baroque music, that line through the chord would mean the kind of arpeggio people in the thread have described. But I don't think Beethoven made use of Baroque ornament symbols that were obsolete in his time. My guess would be that it indicates which "voice" leads to each set of two notes. Honestly though, I don't know.
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Offline keypeg

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Re: Notation Question
Reply #9 on: August 11, 2023, 04:10:28 PM
Quote from: lelle on August 08, 2023, 09:45:46 PM
But I don't think Beethoven made use of Baroque ornament symbols that were obsolete in his time. My guess would be that it indicates which "voice" leads to each set of two notes. Honestly though, I don't know.
Do you have any thoughts or reactions to Beethoven having used the C-clef (soprano)?  This surprised a few of us.
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Offline brogers70

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Re: Notation Question
Reply #10 on: August 31, 2023, 01:31:11 PM
Quote from: keypeg on August 11, 2023, 04:10:28 PM
Do you have any thoughts or reactions to Beethoven having used the C-clef (soprano)?  This surprised a few of us.

I had no idea, but Beethoven used the C clefs for lots, maybe all, of his choral music, Christ on the Mount of Olives, the Mass in C, even the Ninth Symphony. I'm not sure when they dropped out of common use in choral music, but they seem to have hung on into the 19th century. Also, in the little bit of real organ music that he wrote (meaning those cases where I could find a manuscript or first edition in IMSLP) he also seems to have used the soprano clef rather than the treble for the upper staff.

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Offline lelle

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Re: Notation Question
Reply #11 on: August 31, 2023, 01:32:49 PM
Quote from: keypeg on August 11, 2023, 04:10:28 PM
Do you have any thoughts or reactions to Beethoven having used the C-clef (soprano)?  This surprised a few of us.

No idea honestly! But I feel like I learned something from brogers70's reply.
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