BPM scale goals

[swilliams002]

Okay, so I have a habit of asking questions that depend a great deal on the individual pianist and so can hardly be answered with any precision, but it's a habit that's hard to shake, so I'm here to ask another.

I watched a Josh Wright video where he plays a scale at up to 220 bpm, with four notes per click. This got me wondering what some reasonable BPM goals would be for the various scale types, for an advanced pianist like me. I'm by no means a virtuoso, and I've got a lot of deficiencies in technique to correct (hence my wanting to set some scale goals to work towards). I can play most major and minor scales hands together at about 140 bpm, or hands separately around 150. My current goal for this year is to get up to 180.

But in trying to set goals for, e.g., scales in double thirds or octaves, I found myself unsure of what goal I should set. What speed do you think most professional pianists could play double thirds scales at? What about scales in octaves? I suppose it also depends on the scale, since some are more awkward than others.

Also, I'm not accustomed to practicing double notes scales consistently. While I have not tested my limit for scales in thirds, I'm sure it does not exceed 85-90 bpm.

[lostinidlewonder]

Do you intend to play repertoire which demands such things? If not what's the point? If one piece you want to play had it, is that really efficient use of time just for one piece?

[swilliams002]

Do you intend to play repertoire which demands such things? If not what's the point? If one piece you want to play had it, is that really efficient use of time just for one piece?

Are you asking about practicing scales in general? Or just practicing scales in double notes and trying to get them quite fast and fluid?

I do plan to play pieces that have fast double notes. Mostly octaves, since those are the most common. But also pieces with quick double thirds. Medtner's Night Wind sonata would be an example.

[brogers70]

Okay, so I have a habit of asking questions that depend a great deal on the individual pianist and so can hardly be answered with any precision, but it's a habit that's hard to shake, so I'm here to ask another.

I watched a Josh Wright video where he plays a scale at up to 220 bpm, with four notes per click. This got me wondering what some reasonable BPM goals would be for the various scale types, for an advanced pianist like me. I'm by no means a virtuoso, and I've got a lot of deficiencies in technique to correct (hence my wanting to set some scale goals to work towards). I can play most major and minor scales hands together at about 140 bpm, or hands separately around 150. My current goal for this year is to get up to 180.

But in trying to set goals for, e.g., scales in double thirds or octaves, I found myself unsure of what goal I should set. What speed do you think most professional pianists could play double thirds scales at? What about scales in octaves? I suppose it also depends on the scale, since some are more awkward than others.

Also, I'm not accustomed to practicing double notes scales consistently. While I have not tested my limit for scales in thirds, I'm sure it does not exceed 85-90 bpm.

A few years ago I would have said that BPM targets for scales were completely a waste of time and that focusing on getting the right motions and the right sound would more or less automatically improve speed (and that is what my teacher at the time would have said, too). Then I watched the same Josh Wright videos and it changed my mind. After working up to the same range you are at with standard scales I find that the metronome is very helpful. Keeping a record of scale speeds really showed the impact of poor sleep or mild illness. More importantly, by forcing myself to work at progressively faster targets I identified all sorts of subtle problems in motion that could be experimented with and optimized in scales and it helped me in general with all sorts of faster passages that were not themselves straightforward scales hands together up and down over four octaves. Exactly because the notes are automatic it let me focus on all sorts of small physical sensations and details that I would have missed otherwise, and because there is a benchmark with the metronome, it helped me see what worked and what did not. I'm sure you could go too far with this if your tendency was to turn everything into an athletic exercise, but I think if you have an ordinary love of music, you'll probably steer clear of that anyway.

As for the double thirds and octaves, I have not started timing any of those. My guess is that the thirds would be a lot slower, at least at first. I just recently started making targets for arpeggios, and that too seems to help me figure out what motions are more or less efficient than others.

[truecam]

I way I practice scales is half notes left hand against quarter notes right hand then switched. Then 3 against 2 and 3 against 4.

What has helped me though a lot with improving speed however, is playing hand separately and very slowly feeling the weight of each key. What I found the hardest part about playing scales at speed is unevenness which can be fixed by playing very slowly. Also, playing very loud and very soft focusing on evenness helps a lot as well.

In all honesty though, speed of a scale is going to depend a lot on the scale. I don't know how important getting a certain bpm is for all scales, but improving at them individually is something that is definitely good.

[lelle]

Do you intend to play repertoire which demands such things? If not what's the point? If one piece you want to play had it, is that really efficient use of time just for one piece?

I think there is a general value in developing such skills. The insights into technique you get from developing the ability to play certain technical feats can be applied to all repertoire you play and help you improve your playing across the board. But I also agree there are better uses of your time perhaps, if you are just gonna slog through it for the sake of it.

[lostinidlewonder]

Sure there is benefit in being able to do fast scales for sure. I think one needs to be wary where they invest their time, the priority list.

[swilliams002]

A few years ago I would have said that BPM targets for scales were completely a waste of time and that focusing on getting the right motions and the right sound would more or less automatically improve speed (and that is what my teacher at the time would have said, too). Then I watched the same Josh Wright videos and it changed my mind. After working up to the same range you are at with standard scales I find that the metronome is very helpful. Keeping a record of scale speeds really showed the impact of poor sleep or mild illness. More importantly, by forcing myself to work at progressively faster targets I identified all sorts of subtle problems in motion that could be experimented with and optimized in scales and it helped me in general with all sorts of faster passages that were not themselves straightforward scales hands together up and down over four octaves. Exactly because the notes are automatic it let me focus on all sorts of small physical sensations and details that I would have missed otherwise, and because there is a benchmark with the metronome, it helped me see what worked and what did not. I'm sure you could go too far with this if your tendency was to turn everything into an athletic exercise, but I think if you have an ordinary love of music, you'll probably steer clear of that anyway.

As for the double thirds and octaves, I have not started timing any of those. My guess is that the thirds would be a lot slower, at least at first. I just recently started making targets for arpeggios, and that too seems to help me figure out what motions are more or less efficient than others.

Thank you for this response. I think a lot of pianists nowadays dismiss the value of practicing scales, arpeggios, and exercises by themselves apart from repertoire, even though this was common practice in the older "schools" and generally proved to have good results. Of course, everything can be overdone, and that is where a good teacher (as well as time and experience, the best teachers) can help to temper the students' extremes.

I am also not really at the point where I have started timing my double notes scales. But if I learned something from Josh Wright's videos on scales, it is that what is possible in terms of speed is often much greater than one might expect. I, for example, never would have imagined 180 BPM for standard scales as an achievable goal for myself. And while it's TRUE that I have not reached this goal yet, I have seen immense progress in my scale speed, gaining 20 BPM after just a few months of dedicated and attentive practice.

So, while I'm not foolish enough to set a BPM goal for double notes scales that is close to my goal for standard scales (since obviously double notes can never be as rapid as single), I'm inclined to think that an attainable goal for say, double thirds, means a BPM that is at least a little higher than I would have previously thought.

[lostinidlewonder]

I don't know many pianists who would disregard learning technical patterns, but to obsess over velocity is the issue.

[ego0720]

I think there is a general value in developing such skills. The insights into technique you get from developing the ability to play certain technical feats can be applied to all repertoire you play and help you improve your playing across the board. But I also agree there are better uses of your time perhaps, if you are just gonna slog through it for the sake of it.

I call it the "before need" skills.  Good calisthenics.  Cuts some of the work later when it is needed. Sometimes I don't want to be hit with a giant sequoia or even an oak tree of a project. I want to be hit with a peach tree I can run around in circles.