Student refuses to learn details of pieces

[teacher]

One of my rebellious 12 year old students likes learning new pieces but like many students does not want to use proper fingering or practice slowly at first.  Basically she wants to "play" her exam pieces but not "practice" them.

She likes to learn all her pieces including Bach Inventions hands together immediately and play as fast as she can because it's alot more exciting.

When I correct her fingering she gets upset and says she likes it her way.  Although "her way" is extremely awkward and causes her to break a legato line.  When I ask her to slow down and play a Sonatina with an even tempo throughout,  she sighs and rolls her eyes and starts pounding on the keys or exaggerates the "slower" tempo.

I told her that if she could do the most difficult section of the piece at the same tempo as her easiest section then, she could play at that speed.  Her response was she likes going fast when it's easy and slowing down when it's hard.   She also said that the way the composer wrote it was stupid, and her way is better (easier).

Last week I simply said that if she was not going to slow down, that I was simply not going to hear the piece.  Also, with her piece that she has wrong fingering in certain sections, I said that I will only hear those sections otherwise, I was not going to hear any part of the piece.  

Any suggestions?

[tosca1]

Continue to take a firm stand with her as in not hearing her work until she does it properly.  You should mention this problem to her parents and suggest that if she  always insists on playing in her own appalling  way is there any use of her coming to piano lessons?
You could also not enter her for the exam unless there is some improvement.  Assign her specific areas of work to be learnt for the next lesson and keep a record of it so that you can present evidence of her lack of progress.  
There is a problem with this child and in no way must you feel at fault.  The best solution for your own peace of mind may be to ask the parents to withdraw her.
Regards,
Robert.

[BuyBuy]

Do not forget that many 12 year old kids think they know it all : better than ther parents, teachers or anyone... So be patient, try to illustrate your points. Do you explain why some way is better than another ? Understanding makes authority more easily accepted in general. Try also to play CDs for her, so she can see how the piece sounds like when it'splayed properly.

However, do not let yourself disrespected. She must understand there are limits to what she can do or not. The "I do not want to do it" is not acceptable in a class. Why would she have a teacher otherwise ? Be firm and do not let her take over the lesson. If reasoning and explaining does not do any good after many tries, be more severe. Let her sit down for the whole class without treaching anything, so she can get bored and understand she needs to obey. Talk to the parents. If she wants to progress she will eventually come the right way ; if she does not, she will quit.

[teacher]

Thank you both for your replies.   Yes, I do explain to her why I want her to do something a certain way.  For example, why she has to use a certain fingering to get a legato line.

However, there are times where she questions me alot.  She does try to take over the lesson by talking alot!  

When she hears recordings of pieces she plays, she argues about why she should then play it slow.  I explain to her that the pianist on the recording learned the piece slowly at first.  Her comment was, "Well, I'm not a concert pianist, why do you always tell me how concert pianists practice?".

One of my weaknesses as a teacher is not being firm enough because I'm always afraid to turn the student off lessons.  With so many distractions today, I find it's alot harder than years before to motivate students.  However, you are both right in that I should be firm.

During our last lesson, I told her that I do not keep students who do not practice and that if she was going to continue not practicing, then I would not keep her and give her spot to another student who is more willinging to learn and practice.  I told her it's a waste of her parents money, my time, and her time.  Her response was:  "Well, I haven't been practicing much for quite some time now, why are you still keeping me?".  I told her that she's been lucky that I've been such a nice teacher to her and she's gotten away with it and I'm not going to put up with it from now on.

She has the same attitude and "disrespect" with her parents.    Also, when I say anything negative to her mom about the child, the mom looks away from me and gets embarassed and doesn't say anything.  She just looks at her child and asks her:  "Do you hear what your teacher is saying?" and then they leave.

[glamfolk]

Wow. What a joyful experience.  I had a student like that once, and she refused to repeat anything.  After playing a section particularly badly, I asked her to repeat it. After grumbling that "I just did it! I don't have to do it again!" she just pounded her fists on the keys and skulked.  Her parents let me know that she was indeed very strong willed, but that they made a lot of money and could get her to do anything they wanted.  I think that kid needs therapy more than piano lessons.  I'm glad to be rid of the whole bunch.  
I try to explain the inherent rhythm of all the things around us, and that if you speak your own language with the wrong rhythm, you'll hardly be understood (accents on the wrong syllables, splitting phrases, etc.),  and that music works exactly the same way.  Illustrate with bad English (or whatever the language is).  There are conventions that must be followed for any language, including music.  Maybe let her do the song her way, and then the right way, to give her a chance to experiment and improvise.  Some times give and take is the key.  Sometimes I'll drill a single measure for twenty minutes untill neither of us can take it anymore, and then say "wasn't that awful?  Next week we won't do it that way if you play the rhythm right"  The student usually laughs, and improves, but I think that the rhythm of language thing works well almost every time.
Good luck!

[Jo]

If you can afford to ditch the kid, I'd get rid of her. If the parents can't help, I would actually sit the child for an exam and let her see an examiner tell her in writing that she's not doing it the correct way.

Cruel to be kind. I have a student a little bit like this. Once he was told he was sitting the exam in 3 months time regardless of how he played, he knuckled down and started to work, because he doesn't want to look like an idiot.

Anyone had any success with the "I don't care, you're sitting the exam anyway" method?

[lallasvensson]

I have a 10 year-old student who practices obviously badly, just playing over and over without repeating difficult places and thus making her mistakes more obvious each time, playing fast easy places and slowing down more difficult places, playing with non-legato fingering...
I decided to be really tough now, i hit her with a pencil when she repeats the same mistake, i tell her that she d better go to the swimming pool instead of playing the same mistakes over and over. During my class she has to repeat the same places until she can play them and i really scold her the next time if she dares to come back with the same mistakes again. believe me it works. But she is an obedient and good girl from the start, unlike your student. She d never dare to tell me: my way is better. I had a student like that before, during 1 lesson. Only one, he never came back!

[ahmedito]

PLEASE!!!! dont hit your students. Even with a pencil. All you will acomplish is losing students, or making your music class a dreaded experience, when their parents force them to continue going.

One of the things I stress with my preteen students is the importance of careful practice. If they do it "their way" which usually means not practicing carefully, we see he same stuff over and over again. I tell them that the rythim with which we advance is entirely up to them (12 and 13 year olds love to hear about how anything is absolutely up to them). Give THEM the power to change things, dont force them to do it. Eventually, after 4 lessons of doing exactly the same things  they're usually forced to do it your way and advance. I wont force them to work. But, we wont advance till they do it right. It works.

Be careful because this is a defect that can last many years. There is aviolinist here that is very good. She's about 22 years old. She was kicked out because she refused to learn her teachers way. After 2 classes with a Beethoven sonata, she refused to continue with it because: quoting her: "I know Beethoven now! lets play something else".

[ilovebach]

I joined the forum just to answer this one!
One technique which I have found very valuable where a student thinks they are playing well and they won't take on board what I am saying is to record the student playing their piece and then play it back to them immediately. This works on many levels -
1. The fact that you are recording them shows them that you are serious.
2. The student is often concentrating so hard when they play that they do not actually hear how they sound, so they don't realise how bad the slowing, speeding up, pauses, whatever,  sounds.
3. You can listen together and get the student to critique their own playing, so that they get ownership of the improvements.
4. The following week when they have worked on one particular area even if only a couple of bars, you can record them again and let them hear the improvement.

This had spectacular results for me with one pupil who with two weeks to go was still fumbling the exam piece.

I always ask the parents permission to record the child and I say that I will not play the recording to anyone else and that it will be deleted after use.

Hope this helps.