Octave/Chord question + relaxation

[musicsdarkangel]

When you pound out fast octaves or chords (Liszt, Chopin), do you use your arms?  wrists?  both?

I bet that if I learned, I could play octaves pretty quickly with my wrists doing all of the verticle motion, but I don't know which way to go.

Another question, how relaxed should I be when I play?  I do have some tension and my back always aches when I finish playing. 

The only tension I feel, however, is in my arms and sometimes jaw.

[Hmoll]

When you pound out fast octaves or chords (Liszt, Chopin), do you use your arms?  wrists?  both?

I bet that if I learned, I could play octaves pretty quickly with my wrists doing all of the verticle motion, but I don't know which way to go.

Another question, how relaxed should I be when I play?  I do have some tension and my back always aches when I finish playing. 

The only tension I feel, however, is in my arms and sometimes jaw.

You don't pound out octaves.

You use wrist, forearms, upper arms, torso in combination, and depending on the specific passage.

You should not have tension in your back, arms, jaw, big toe, etc.

[richard w]

Stepping in for Xvimbi, here.... he normally recommends What every pianist needs to know about the body by Thomas Mark (2003). Having read this book, I found it told me things I should have known all along, such as how the arms are attached to the body or the mechanics of how the hand rotates, in addition to how to be 'in balance' at the piano.

If you are getting back pain then you are almost certainly not 'in balance', and consequently muscles are having to work to support you. You are most likely completely unaware of this tension, other than it manifests itself as 'noticable' tension in your arms and as back pain. I'd recommend first looking at Mark's book, but you might need to look further into Alexander Technique (the basis of Mark's book, I suspect) to change your habits and cure your problem. I'm following a similar path at the moment, and although I've not found the solution to my tension, I have been made aware of it.  I used to think I was quite relaxed - it is quite unbelievable to discover how your body can deceive you.

The above is your starting point, and should make your playing easier. After that you can look into the hand and arm movements required for playing chords and octaves - there are many books which deal with technique, although I've yet to delve into this for myself, so I'll have to get back to you with my recommendations.




Richard.

[pianonut]

yes.  the alexander technique does make playing more relaxing!  you aren't striving to "break through"  so much as completely relax when you are playing a very difficult passage (for me octaves and large chords).  i no longer 'lock into position' but maintain a general hand arch within a flatter hand (hand has eliptical arch toward your arm instead of rainbow arch going up - as i used to teach)  when you use less hand arch up, you need less wrist action, less arm action ... and you can play more by touching (feeling) pinky taking each consecutive octave or chord.  i hope this is right.  it seems to be the way i have observed and understand my teacher to play.

[xvimbi]

Stepping in for Xvimbi, here....

Thanks Richard 

[musicsdarkangel]

yes.  the alexander technique does make playing more relaxing!  you aren't striving to "break through"  so much as completely relax when you are playing a very difficult passage (for me octaves and large chords).  i no longer 'lock into position' but maintain a general hand arch within a flatter hand (hand has eliptical arch toward your arm instead of rainbow arch going up - as i used to teach)  when you use less hand arch up, you need less wrist action, less arm action ... and you can play more by touching (feeling) pinky taking each consecutive octave or chord.  i hope this is right.  it seems to be the way i have observed and understand my teacher to play.

So you're saying that you lower your wrist?  and stay level with the keys?

[pianonut]

yes.  i don't tend to play a lot of octaves in most of my pieces, but from what i am observing (in playing minimal stretches of octave or 9th's) is that a flatter hand allows you to reach.  i can now easily reach a 9th and could play it the same as octaves.  this is a recent addition to my 'technique.'  of course, no one would want to hear 9th's together, but it is coming in handy in the barber nocturne.

i wonder if when a teacher is teaching younger beginning students, the 'rainbow' arch is better at first.  they learn how to 'lock in' so they can play repeatedly the same distance.  BUT, then when you become good at it, what need is there to be tense in the middle of your hand.  the more it is relaxed (arch eliptical toward arm) the faster you can play.  from what i have noticed of my teacher's playing, it is occasionally somewhat between the two extremes (hand is not overly arched, or too flat, but sort of a flat naturally-slight-curved hand).  if you draw a line from the thumb to pinky the mid point of the arch wouldn't be the center of the palm, but more like the pressing part of your hand.  i don't know if i am technically right in saying this.  i hope someone else will respond, too.

[ted]

The trouble with trying to explain these physical things is that describing the external appearance of the hands cannot convey the internal sensations from one player to another. General commonsense principles can be formulated which, if followed, probably give a good chance of success. However, such is the gymnastic variation, even among good players that I often wonder if we actually hinder people by telling them to play to produce a given physical result. If only there were some way of conveying haptic feelings other than through words or pictures.

I use such a wide variety of approach to octaves, depending on musical result, speed, distance apart and so on that I hesitate to describe what I do physically in case I put somebody crook instead of helping them. Add to this my obvious unorthodoxy in most musical matters and my prudent course is clearly to refrain altogether from commenting. Yet this too seems wrong because if I have played difficult music for years without hurting myself I must be doing something right and I feel I should try to help.

In general, if the octaves are very rapid and close together, it's possible to employ the third, fourth and fifth fingers in a sort of running motion. The further apart the octaves get the less this is possible without a large hand span and the more the wrist comes into play; with really big leaps the arm comes into play.

That's what I've found, for what it's worth, but I find the sensations involved very hard to put into words.

[musicsdarkangel]

What about the octaves near the beginning of the Mephisto Waltz?

With the 4th leaps consecutively?

Should I play those with wrist?  low wrist? 

arm with high wrist?

how should i practice these?

by the way, thanks, these are all excellent replies.

[lostinidlewonder]

On backaches etc. When you sit at the piano you should always with your legs not ass, just under your backside and at the edge of the seat. And you should push your chest forwards, this will naturally bring your shoulders back. This is how you should always sit, when i see people swaying crowching doing crazy things letting the music play them, it will kill your back eventually if you repeat it hours on end every day.
One tip about getting sore hands. When i was younger playing Pathetique sonata, the allegro con brio section page 2 1st movement, the LH octaves shaking, 1,5,1,5,1,5,1,5 continously would make my hand so tired. So as soon as i felt the burn coming in, i would slow down the speed and quieten the touch so that i could still feel a SLIGHT burn but not so much to make it uncomfortable. I found doing this for a few months strengthened the hand and increased efficiency so if i got tired I could maintain the right sound for longer before i had to slow up and quieten down again.

What about the octaves near the beginning of the Mephisto Waltz?
With the 4th leaps consecutively?
How should i practice these?

Which note has the harder accent? These octaves are not played all evenly, for instance with the first one, you have to accent the first B octaves, then "push off" from the E is which allows the hands to lift up higher and drop back onto the B. The movement from B up to E has low wrist, but from E down to B there must be a higher hand so that the accent comes from dropping back down onto B. But this downward drop is controlled, dont just drop your hand or the accent it too much, not as written, interpretively that accent may produce an interesting beat, but it is not written like that. The drop has to be controlled not just dropped carelessly, guide it down.
Practice it slow, over exaggerate the pushing off from the notes and droping down. It automatically becomes faster once you are confidence with the movement. You must refine the push off and drop so that it is not too big and the hand doesn't fly everywhere, but it still produces effective accents.

[pianonut]

how cool.  i just tried it in front of my computer keyboard.  i wouldn't have thought to try anything 'trancendental' lately but these tips make it possible.  from what i read on the gramophone forum, there are sections in mazeppa that liszt wants you to use the same finger and slide it up or down (for speed).  this really hurts until you get a callouse.  can you wrap your fingers first with a band-aid?

[ted]

I play Mazeppa. Which sections are those you should slide your finger up and down ? I can't imagine any parts where doing that would be any good.

[richard w]

On backaches etc. When you sit at the piano you should always with your legs not ass, just under your backside and at the edge of the seat.

I don't like to disagree, but this isn't quite what I'm trying to achieve with my own way of sitting. The aim should be to minimise as much muscular tension as possible by sitting in balance. This is a very difficult thing to achieve, but you can start by understanding that you have various points of balance which all need to line up for you to be in balance. If you sit on your legs rather than your buttocks, you will be transferring your weight into the bench at a point somewhat in front of your points of balance, and will therefore have to engage in muscular tension across the hip joint to support yourself. Instead you should make sure your weight is transferred to the bench through your buttocks, and in particular through the 'sit' bones of your pelvis.

[lostinidlewonder]

I guess i could clarify by saying, if you sit down and reach around yourself and touch ur ass, then that good lol. But if you reach around and you are touching your back, you are sitting too flat. Of course take your hands away from the keyboard and lift your feet, if you fall forwards you are too much forward, thats only logical. But you have to realise that it is the feet that balance you. You should be slightly forward, and if the feet where removed you should feel like you are balancing like a see-saw. The foot grounded then gives you a more intimate sense of the pedal since it is maintaining your balance.

[richard w]

Yes, that's a good point, Lostinidlewonder. Back pain certainly could be caused by sitting with a C-shaped spine and transferring weight into the stool through the top of the buttocks (or even through the bottom of the spine - which is, I suppose, the vestige of a tail and not really strong enough for providing long term support). It is well worth acquainting oneself with the shape of the pelvis and how it associates with the spine and the legs. But, to get anyone who is interested started, you can feel the sit bones for yourself by feeling your buttocks whist sitting down. The hip joint is actually higher up the pelvis than the bottom of the sit bones, so the legs swing out of the way of sitting down. One can certainly enhance one's stability by planting the feet firmly on the floor, but the legs don't need to play a part in sitting 'in balance'. Consider playing the organ for instance, where the feet can't actually be used for balance. Organists are in even graver danger of sitting on the base of their spines and sitting in a C-shape - a way of sitting because they have failed to appreciate that their legs are not a necessary part of keeping them 'in balance'.

Who'd have thought that sitting down was so complicated? 



Richard.

[delpetrarca]

I assume we are talking about playing octaves/chords with the same fingers. What about playing a legato phrase with all chords (I mean those chords are continuous, w/o lifting hands)? How to do that fast?  This has been my biggest technique problem ... PlezPlez help! Thanx!!!

[richard w]

Hi Delpetrarca, do you have a specific passage in mind? Naturally, such variety exists in the repertoire that it is a bit difficult to give an answer to your question which you would find useful. If you can, post a picture or direct us to a link which contains the sheet music.



Richard.

[delpetrarca]

Hi Richard,
Thanks for the reply! After posting this msg last night, I browsed through many many old postings here and found my answer actually!    I didn't have anything specific in mind, just in general- can't play thirds well. I came across this post that talks about fingering that's very helpful to me. Another post mentions using the wrist & arm while keeping hte fingers firm also helped a bit. More comments, in general? Thanks!
This forum is just really helpful!!!
P.

[richard w]

Ah, when it comes to thirds I'm a bit out of my depth, but I'll share my approach with you on the basis that it is work in progress for me.

First of all, I'm convinced that one of the misconceptions is that 'legato' is taken to be a way of connecting notes together, rather than an overall effect that you are trying to create. A rapid thirds passage will sound legato if you have evenness of touch, even if you are actually playing it detached, because the dampers will barely be able to keep up with your pace. If it still seems too dry, you may be able to add some pedal, (in fact you may have to add the pedal in any case).

That said, I think the key to thirds probably lies not in playing the keys with the fingers (as in slow legato thirds), but in using the arm and wrist to place the fingers on the keys. Fingers can then be selected whilst the hand is above the keyboard. By doing this, the effort of playing is transferred to stronger muscles which are better able to cope with the demands. I imagine you probably court injury by adopting a finger-orientated approach to something like Chopin's Op.25 No.6.

That is my work in progress so far. I hope it helps.




Richard.

[delpetrarca]

Thanks so much on the legato idea, i mean the idea of non-legato. That will make life easier, definately. I'm not very good at pedals though, I just hope I don't end up making a mess...  But I would say that it's still able to play it with real legato, and it's still the way we should strive for.. i mean when I watch the vedios of some pianists play, such as Richter and Zimmerman play thirds phrases, they just look so easy, as if they're just single line legato...