Most difficult Liszt pieces?

[musicsdarkangel]

What would you all consider to be the most difficult Liszt pieces?

I am mastering La Campanella and Learning Mephisto Waltz, and I want to know how much further the bar goes.

[lenny]

the early version of the paganini etudes

the grande etudes

misc. pieces such as don juan, grand galop chromatique(if performed correctly), beethoven symphony transcriptions

i short, la campanella is nothing compared to those pieces mentioned above(difficulty wise)

[Skeptopotamus]

Liszt wrote music that was alot more broad in technique than is given to him, but i personally think Mephisto Waltz No. 1, of his commonly performed pieces, is completely botched the most, Totentanz (is much nastier than you think unless you've tried it) is nearly impossible to learn, the famous Sonata in B Minor is actually much less difficult than most of his stuff, except that it is almost 30 minutes long, and for shorter pieces, Feux Follet seems to give everyone trouble, though Mazeppa i think is harder.  But Overture to Tannhauser and Riminiscences de Don Juan have to be near the top if not the very top.

But he wrote SOOOO much music that never gets heard it is nearly impossible to say.  From the lesser known works of his, I would say that some are:

Overture to King Lear
Souvenir de la Fiancee has a few passages that are pretty nasty
Overture to William Tell

and there are tons more but it's 8AM so these will have to do.  And remember, a good way of telling whether or not a Liszt piece is going to be difficult is if it was written by Liszt.

[presto agitato]

What would you all consider to be the most difficult Liszt pieces?

St.Francis of Paula walking on the waves

[Skeptopotamus]

hehe yeah that piece does make La Campanella look pretty silly.  Talk about nasty tremelos...


I hope you have a VERY big left hand if you want to try that one.  But Jeux D'eau a la Ville D'Este i think is harder than that one.

[musicsdarkangel]

Grand Gallope Chromatique?

Really?

I have the music, it doesn't look that hard to me (of course I know it's quite fast and tricky), but it isn't a long piece and unlike Campanella, the technique repeats itself.

[larse]

Hmm...most difficult Liszt pieces:

If you're looking for a technical challenge with Liszt, try the Mazeppa. I would say that most of the Transcendental Etudes are alot harder than La Campanella and all of the other Paganini Etudes. Compared

The Sonata are not the most techical piece, but it's musically enormous compared to his other works.

But I think that Scriabin often are alot harder than Liszt in many ways. Especially some of the Sonatas. And musically very different than anything else.

[Hamfast]

Hmm...most difficult Liszt pieces:

If you're looking for a technical challenge with Liszt, try the Mazeppa. I would say that most of the Transcendental Etudes are alot harder than La Campanella and all of the other Paganini Etudes.

The Mazeppa is probably the hardest Liszt piece.  but i think about La Campanella and Chasse-neige......

[DarkWind]

The Mazeppa is probably the hardest Liszt piece.  but i think about La Campanella and Chasse-neige......

Mazeppa is nothing compared to Feux Follets. I've tried playing both of them, sight reading that is. I can't even play the beginning bar of Feux Follets at speed, honestly. My teacher personally believes the most difficult work is Reminiscences de Don Juan. I'd say that, Robert Le Diable, Feux Follets, and the Second Version of his Transcendental Etudes are the hardest pieces he wrote. Also, Overture to William Tell isn't too difficult, just a few tricky passages. I've managed to sight read it on a decent level.

[lenny]

Grand Gallope Chromatique?

Really?

I have the music, it doesn't look that hard to me (of course I know it's quite fast and tricky), but it isn't a long piece and unlike Campanella, the technique repeats itself.

when i say 'performed correctly', i mean like cziffra! 


also - when you people are mentioning the trancendental etudes - virtually every single one of them is much more difficult in the earlier GRADE ETUDES version.

the feux follets in the grande etudes is..... 

probably his hardest short piece of all, i believe

[donjuan]

when i say 'performed correctly', i mean like cziffra! 


also - when you people are mentioning the trancendental etudes - virtually every single one of them is much more difficult in the earlier GRADE ETUDES version.

the feux follets in the grande etudes is..... 

probably his hardest short piece of all, i believe

haha such an awesome Cziffra recording of Galop.. the only one I listen to nowadays.
1837 version of Feux Follets is Liszt's hardest piece?? na uh..  I would say his opera transcription "Grand Concert Fantasy from Sonnambula" or Reminiscences des Puritains.  (Come on, these are montrous works with exhausting technical magic in the air)

or, as Skeptopotamus mentioned before, His Overture to William Tell is also vicious.  I think it is one of his most difficult just because he wrote it when he was young and as a result the notes are so frickin awkward you have to be very innovative just to make it work. 

But honestly, I really dont think Feux Follets is the most difficult.  Perhaps you could make the argument that it is the most difficult piece of music IN THIRDS, but not overall.  I would rather take on Feux Follets than Chopin's Winter Wind etude. 

(FYI to you peeps talking about Grand Galop Chromatique - It is very well known this piece has been put into context with his huge Galop in A minor, and many would say the Chromatique galop is studied in preparation for studying Galop in A minor.) I think it is similar to how Grosses Konzertsolo is studied before tackling the B Minor Sonata.
donjuan

[lenny]

the earlier FF, i calimed it to be the hardest SHORT piece.

of course those fantasies are 20 minutes long and so its an entirely different kind of challenge!

and about the william tell - there is a cziffra imporovisation which basically makes it 10 times more tdifficult

its much better than the original to me actually, cziffra made the finish so much more exciting

[chromatickler]

Feux Follets... it is the most difficult piece of music IN THIRDS

it's not. and if it is, it's not.

[musicsdarkangel]

I can play Winter Wind easily.

Feux Follet sounds difficult.

Can I really learn it up to tempo?

[larse]

The Winter wind etude does'nt even compare to Feux Follets. All of the Transcendental etudes are more difficult than any Chopin Etude. Except from no 1, it's quite easy, and perhaps the calm ones. The hardest is the Mazeppa, and the next one is supposed to be Feux Follets.

No 2 is said to be quite easy, but if you think so, you should look at the original tempo signing printed in the Editio Musica Budapest's New Liszt Edition.

[hodi]

how difficult is  no.8 'Wild Jagd' ?

[pianostudent88]

Wilde Jagd looks difficult, but it's nothing compared to Mazeppa (it's so many different difficulties in this piece!!)
The Sonata is a huge piece of work and very hard to play
The concertos are not easy
The Transcendental etudes is probably the hardest work
I dont see Feux follets as so hard if you have a good finger-technique but it is difficult!
Some pieces from Annees de Pelerinage are difficult too, like "Aprés une lecture du Dante" which is simply fantastic.

[chromatickler]

All of the Transcendental etudes are more difficult than any Chopin Etude.

Possibly the most cliched mis-conception out of the entire piano repertoire, WITHOUT the all&any. With them is just laughable, even when you qualified it later.

[Skeptopotamus]

wow chromatickler- good job on getting so off-subject.  This is probably going to start a big argument and ruin the whole point of this topic.


PS the transcendental etudes make chopin look like chopsticks.


But i still think Riminiscensces de Don Juan and Overture to Tannhauser are harder than any of the etudes.

[apion]

Liszt wrote music that was alot more broad in technique than is given to him, but i personally think Mephisto Waltz No. 1, of his commonly performed pieces, is completely botched the most, Totentanz (is much nastier than you think unless you've tried it) is nearly impossible to learn, the famous Sonata in B Minor is actually much less difficult than most of his stuff, except that it is almost 30 minutes long, and for shorter pieces, Feux Follet seems to give everyone trouble, though Mazeppa i think is harder.  But Overture to Tannhauser and Riminiscences de Don Juan have to be near the top if not the very top.

But he wrote SOOOO much music that never gets heard it is nearly impossible to say.  From the lesser known works of his, I would say that some are:

Overture to King Lear
Souvenir de la Fiancee has a few passages that are pretty nasty
Overture to William Tell

and there are tons more but it's 8AM so these will have to do.  And remember, a good way of telling whether or not a Liszt piece is going to be difficult is if it was written by Liszt.

I've studied many of Liszt's pieces, and I agree with this post.  Piano Concertos 1, 2 and Totentanz are all killers.  As are several of his Hungarian Rhapsodies and Mephisto.  I gave up on the Transcendental Etudes, so for me, these are the most difficult.

[rab1588]

how would you guys compare the transcendental etudes to beethoven's hammerklavier in terms of musical and technical difficulty? i just recently heard the mazeppa and it shocked me.

[apion]

how would you guys compare the transcendental etudes to beethoven's hammerklavier in terms of musical and technical difficulty? i just recently heard the mazeppa and it shocked me.

The Hammerklavier is one of the toughest sonatas, for certain.  Very challenging both technically and musically.  But Liszt's transcendental etudes are, in almost every respect, more challenging technically.

But I'm speaking based on reputation.  I have not performed either (but attempted both), so I lack intimate first hand knowledge.

[steinwayguy]

how would you guys compare the transcendental etudes to beethoven's hammerklavier in terms of musical and technical difficulty? i just recently heard the mazeppa and it shocked me.

There is absolutely not question that the Hammerklavier is enormously more difficult than any of the transcendental etudes musically. i.e. "fugue"

I say with confidence that is also more difficult technically than any of them.

[presto agitato]

What about Funérailles? It sound´s simple but it´s very very hard to learn and play.

[donjuan]

What about Funérailles? It sound´s simple but it´s very very hard to learn and play.

are you kidding??  At music festivals and competitions where people are afraid to play Liszt, one of the only Liszt pieces you will hear other than Consolation no.1 or Liebestraume No.3 is indeed Funerailles.  Funerailles is quite easy to sightread even and it fits the hands very comfortably in performance.  I dont know what other works of Liszt you have been checking out to see Funerailles as such a monumental work.

[presto agitato]

are you kidding??  At music festivals and competitions where people are afraid to play Liszt, one of the only Liszt pieces you will hear other than Consolation no.1 or Liebestraume No.3 is indeed Funerailles.  Funerailles is quite easy to sightread even and it fits the hands very comfortably in performance.  I dont know what other works of Liszt you have been checking out to see Funerailles as such a monumental work.

Ok. Maybe your conception of difficulty lies in playing 10 notes per second with both hands...

[lenny]

wow chromatickler- good job on getting so off-subject.  This is probably going to start a big argument and ruin the whole point of this topic.


PS the transcendental etudes make chopin look like chopsticks.


But i still think Riminiscensces de Don Juan and Overture to Tannhauser are harder than any of the etudes.

i agree with chromatickler to a degree

the chopin etudes are much more rigorous in their technical demands, SURE - the liszt etudes demand mastery of many different techniques in the same pieces - but chopin CONCENTRATES on just one primary technique and runs through some of the most difficult permutations of that technique

the liszt works mostly dont delve in as deep into developing an ALL EMBRACING master of each individual technique - be it 3rds, 6ths, octaves..or whatever.

[donjuan]

Ok. Maybe your conception of difficulty lies in playing 10 notes per second with both hands...

look, if it's musical difficulty you are implying now, you still really dont have a case..  Look, it's not worth arguing about, but look at Funerailles - pure harmonies, simple rhythms, comfortable fingering, no real technical challenges.. What exactly do you find so difficult about it?  The only part of it sort of tough is the octave part in the left hand that mimics Chopin's Heroic Polonaise, many believe, as a tribute to him.
but like I said, it's not worth arguing about this..
in fact, I think Ill stop right now

[Skeptopotamus]

haha was i right or what?

[ralessi]

I dont think i could pick ONE liszt piece as the most difficult....i am a Liszt FANATIC like NO OTHER.  THe Don Juan really is not as hard as everyone makes it out to be.  I have read through it and nothing that seems impossible with practice.  But that is just me, I find the Chromatique a bit more technically difficult than the Don Juan.  Im thinking that his Transcriptions of the Beethoven Symphonies to be played well are probly some of the most difficult, such big chords you have to NAIL  or else they sound like garbage.  Played through the first 2 mvts. of the 5th, looked at the 3rd and cried, looked at the 9th and nearly S*** myself! His opera transcriptions are as well out of this world such as the Willy Tell and the Rem. Norma, i also am a fool for his Valse Infernale from Rem of Robert le Diable.  So SO SO much music of Liszt!!!!!!!!

[ballade]

How about Vallee D'Obermann from Annees de Pelerinages? How difficult is that, musically and technically?

[bflatminor24]

I have a large volume of Liszt scores, and have sight read a considerable amount of Liszt's compositions. I don't know much about his transcriptions, but as for his more original pieces, I have some input regarding musical and technical difficulty.

I am playing Mazeppa right now, and I have good octave and thirds technique so I am learning it fairly quickly. Feux Follets however is another story...that piece is insane. I can't even play one page of it at any real speed, because the motion is so awkward for my hands. Feux Follets is definitely his hardest etude, and probably his hardest short piece. It's hard to compare it to his Sonata, which I consider more difficult overall, because the Sonata represents such great musical and pianistic depth. The B minor Sonata has every component of piano playing and it is my favorite piece. Because of its enormous scale and depth (and let's not disregard the Sonata's technical challenges as well) I consider this his most difficult piece OVERALL. Again, this is similar to comparing Alkan's Le Preux with his Solo Concerto.

Technical awkwardness and tempo contribute to difficulty, just as sheer notes and stretches contribute to difficulty. Every component of piano playing can be made difficult. Octaves seem easy to play fast, until you hear Le Preux. Thirds aren't bad until you play 25/6 or Mazeppa (somehow I can do this). Every facet has its technical possibilities. Liszt did a fantastic job exploiting the awkwardness of alternating thirds and sixths with Feux Follets, combined with virtuosic scales and runs. For those of you looking for a great recording, look for Minoru Nojima...his Feux Follets is the best I've heard (compared with Arrau, Cziffra, Fialkowska, Berman, and Richter).

[tompilk]

i would say feux follets, grand gallop chromatique and the solo version of totentanz are pretty tricky - the latter being almost impossible...
Tom

[mikey6]

How about Vallee D'Obermann from Annees de Pelerinages? How difficult is that, musically and technically?

Not terribly.  It's biggest problem is pacing issues - it's rather sectional but it can be overcome.  That and it's hard to shape with the crotchet on the 1/2 beat stopping the flow of the melody.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Tarantelle di bravoure on Auber's "La Muette de Portici". Harder, I'd say, than even Don Juan (which is often considered the hardest transcription).

[avetma]

Technicaly most demanding piece is Reminiscenes of Don Juan, but musically - his sonata. Sonata is musically far far more complicated than anything he wrote.

[nanabush]

I was lookin online, and I came across this competition, and some 15 year old girl is playing Reminisence de Don Juan... is that crazy or what.

[thalbergmad]

I have messed around with the 1838 version of the Paganini Etudes.

The 2nd one in E flat minor takes some playing.

Thal

[ramseytheii]

I have a large volume of Liszt scores, and have sight read a considerable amount of Liszt's compositions. I don't know much about his transcriptions, but as for his more original pieces, I have some input regarding musical and technical difficulty.

I am playing Mazeppa right now, and I have good octave and thirds technique so I am learning it fairly quickly. Feux Follets however is another story...that piece is insane. I can't even play one page of it at any real speed, because the motion is so awkward for my hands. Feux Follets is definitely his hardest etude, and probably his hardest short piece. It's hard to compare it to his Sonata, which I consider more difficult overall, because the Sonata represents such great musical and pianistic depth. The B minor Sonata has every component of piano playing and it is my favorite piece. Because of its enormous scale and depth (and let's not disregard the Sonata's technical challenges as well) I consider this his most difficult piece OVERALL. Again, this is similar to comparing Alkan's Le Preux with his Solo Concerto.

Technical awkwardness and tempo contribute to difficulty, just as sheer notes and stretches contribute to difficulty. Every component of piano playing can be made difficult. Octaves seem easy to play fast, until you hear Le Preux. Thirds aren't bad until you play 25/6 or Mazeppa (somehow I can do this). Every facet has its technical possibilities. Liszt did a fantastic job exploiting the awkwardness of alternating thirds and sixths with Feux Follets, combined with virtuosic scales and runs. For those of you looking for a great recording, look for Minoru Nojima...his Feux Follets is the best I've heard (compared with Arrau, Cziffra, Fialkowska, Berman, and Richter).

I don't think Mazeppa really helps that much withthirds personally.  It helps for rapid repetition and fast jumps and requires a perfect arm and elbow technique.  There is really only one passage in Mazeppa with fingered thirds and it is one or two bars long.  I really don't agree with some before saying Totentanz is "nearly impossible;" but I know there are several version of the piece.  I have the Siloti, and I promise you all, it is not only not "neary impossible," but I would say it is "rather possible," and of his works mentioned here, the least interesting in terms of innovative or brilliant piano technique.  The sound is special of course, but if you are looking for a Liszt piece that is really hard, with new challenges on each page, look no further than the Mephisto Waltz, or the Don Juan Fantasy.  The Legends are frankly not that difficult; the shorter etudes are not as hard as those two; the Sonata doesn't have as many extreme challenges like Mephisto; of course the Transcendental Etudes, but I say, don't count those since those are Etudes; so there!

Walter Ramsey

[liszt1022]

I agree with anyone who said this.

[tompilk]

I agree with anyone who said this.

not that difficult compared to some pieces 20mins long - im sure that the totentanz solo version is more difficult than that - but id have to play them both to be certain...
Tom

[liszt1022]

not that difficult compared to some pieces 20mins long - im sure that the totentanz solo version is more difficult than that - but id have to play them both to be certain...
Tom

The audio excerpt was a 1:30 sample of a work that is just under 67 minutes long on this recording (Beethoven 9th Symphony)

Christina Kiss, who has played every Liszt piece, calls Symphonies 5 and 9 the hardest of Liszt's piano output.

[tompilk]

ive heard of her - she plans to play the complete liszt piano music (like Leslie Howard) in concert at Carnegie Hall? something like that - all the best to her! I didnt think she had finished yet though...
Tom

[prometheus]

The hardest piece is probably either the transcription of Beethoven 9th or the transcription of Symphony Fantastique

[sauergrandson]

Valse infernale

Tarantelle de bravour

[columna]

Technicaly most demanding piece is Reminiscenes of Don Juan, but musically - his sonata. Sonata is musically far far more complicated than anything he wrote.

The Sonata is indeed a musical challenge like no other in Liszt's music.I've played it last year and it demands a technical and musical assurence like no other.Is complex structure combined with the wide range of technical challenges it demands AND is enormous length as a single-movement piece makes it's work and performance a true display of artistic maturity at the Piano.I've played a great deal of Liszt'works like Balade nº2,Chasse-neige,Harmonies du Soir,the "appassionata" etude,Totentanz,etc.,but the Sonata was truly a demanding and exaustive piece of work to me!But very rewarding...

[maxy]

ooooooook

so far we have seen:

-early Pag studies
-Grandes etudes (early TEs)
-a bunch of transcriptions: Beethoven Symphonies, Don Juan, Tannhauser, William Tell King Lear
-TE 4 and 5 (Mazeppa and Feux Follets)
-Mephisto waltz 1
-St-François de Paule marchant sur les flots
-Funérailles
-Totentanz (solo version and piano/orchestra)
-Grand galop chromatique
-Vallée d'Obermann

considering mechanical aspect mostly, let's take away a few:

Funérailles, Vallée d'Obermann and "St-François de Paule marchant sur les flots" are no beasts in the Liszt catalogue.  They are actually good starting points when it comes to Liszt.  Most of Mephisto is not hard, but there is one very nasty part and yes, it is possibly the most butchered Liszt piece.  I personally don't think it is reason enough to put it on a "hardest Liszt list".  If butchering ratio was to be considered, the hardest pieces ever would be Chopin's fantaisie-impromptu and Beethoven's Moonlight sonata. 

Grand Galop is not that bad, Cziffra speed is just insane.  Not many can play it at that speed.  So if we do keep the insane speed restriction, yes, it's extremely hard.  Otherwise nope.

For the transcriptions I will stick with the mainstream stuff: Tannhauser,  Don Juan and the Beethoven  symphonies are BEASTS.  A lot of mostly unknown transcriptions are also incredibly hard.

Concerning TEs, 4-5 and 12 are recognized as the hardest.  We don't seem to agree on which is hardest.  I would personally say 5 is hardest.  I did play 4 and find tremolos quite easy so I am not scared at all of #12.  Someone asked how hard is # 8 Wilde Jagd?  It's much easier than it sounds, unless we put the restriction under 4:30...

That being said, the early TEs (Grandes études) and the early Pag studies are much harder than the TEs overall.  I find these pieces less effective than their final product so I don't really see the point of actually learning them seriously but they are insanely hard and it is the point of the current topic.

I never seriously looked at Totentanz so I won't pretend I know all about it's difficulty, but I did know some student that did play solo and piano/orchestra versions.  He actually said it was not that hard and quite fun.

[elevateme]

liszt horowitz hungarian rhapsody no 2. watch lang lang doing it on youtube. he looks like hes having a fit.
also horowitz said it was the hardest thing hes ever played

[etudes]

Réminiscences des Puritains

one of my friend once prepared for Liszt Utrech Competition ,he studied with Enrico Pace
then he asked Pace (also first prize from Liszt Competition) to pick one from Don Juan,Norma,Puritains and Pace said that Don Juan and Norma still ok but not that Réminiscences des Puritains

[airasia]

ok so transcendental etudes 4 and 5 are the hardest, which one is the easiest?