boo brahms

[Skeptopotamus]

am i the only person who hates brahms?

[presto agitato]

I dont hate him but it takes a time to get into his music.
I dont like his piano stuff too much i prefer his orchestal works.

[klavierkonzerte]

i hate his piano works too except the concertos ofcource.

[pianonut]

i think he wanted the piano to be more like a violin.  you have very large, incomfortable leaps (and chords) sometimes.  he thought orchestrally, and not so much pianistically.

[larse]

Brahms is not to hate.
His many Intermezzi and such can of course be boring, but I cannot respect anyone who suggests he cannot write great music.
i.e. the hungarian dances and the waltzes op. thirtysomething.

Op. 116, Op. 117 and 118 are all great as well...actually, I don't dislike Brahms at all. But he's not the greatest composer I know. What I do know is that whenever he wrote music, he thought chamber musically, not orchestrally. That's a bit of the truth behind his great uncomfortable leaps. The 2nd piano concerto was actually meant to be a nonette, however, he changed the score in order to make more money from it..

[Skeptopotamus]

yah some of his orchestral stuff is great, like his double concerto i LOVE, but i find he solo piano music just unbearable almost.  Even Alkan knew when to just cool it.  It's so.... i don't know.  just LOUD.  and constant!  It just bores into my head until i want to die.  He wrote a couple things that are good, but most of it is just too much.

[whynot]

I'm stunned by all these pianists who don't like Brahms' piano music.  He's not my very favorite, because he's not Bach, but I do love most of what he wrote and don't find it unpianistic or awkward.  It doesn't always get played with a lot of nuance, so I understand the "loud and constant" comment, but I think that's more the fault of the pianists than the writing.  I can't think of any piece of his that should just stay loud throughout.  I also think many people play Brahms with 'way too much rhythmic freedom.  A lot of the subtlety (that was hard to spell) of the writing is in how the rhythms work together (or don't).  When it's played all swooshy and loose, it loses the momentum of the rhythmic interplay-- and becomes maudlin and unsophisticated.   

I play a lot of the solo stuff, plus chamber pieces and accompanying cello & violin sonatas, and accompanying singers on the songs, so I have seen a lot of his piano parts (not all).  I love playing these works.  I can't be the only one!   

[dmk]

I'm stunned by all these pianists who don't like Brahms' piano music. He's not my very favorite, because he's not Bach, but I do love most of what he wrote and don't find it unpianistic or awkward. It doesn't always get played with a lot of nuance, so I understand the "loud and constant" comment, but I think that's more the fault of the pianists than the writing. I can't think of any piece of his that should just stay loud throughout. I also think many people play Brahms with 'way too much rhythmic freedom. A lot of the subtlety (that was hard to spell) of the writing is in how the rhythms work together (or don't). When it's played all swooshy and loose, it loses the momentum of the rhythmic interplay-- and becomes maudlin and unsophisticated.

I couldn't agree with you more, you are not alone!!!!

I really like Brahm's!!!   I hated it @ first because I got stuck into the Rhapsody in Gminor (op 79 n2) a little too early....although I could play it just fine, I was very unhappy where I left it musically..After about 2 years I went back to the Rhapsody and now it is one of the most solid pieces in my (limited!!! ) repertoire. 

I find it difficult to believe that people think that this is not a marvellous work, the B minor (op 79 n1) is also fantastic (although I find it more difficult than its counterpart).

From my experience, I think the mistake that some people make with Brahms is trying to tackle pieces which are a little too hard for them on the premise that they are easier than other romantics, say Liszt.  (This statement is made in the context of those sitting for exams and needing a romantic piece all the pieces are supposed to be around the same level of difficulty).  Brahms (IMHO) is very difficuly to pull off and, like any composer, there is nothing worse than badly played Brahms.

[musicsdarkangel]

Listen to Violin + piano sonata in d minor (i think maybe just violin sonata), it's absolutely beautiful.

I played it with the concertmaster of the Illinois Symphony Orchestra, she sounded better than any recording i've heard.

God it was a beast to learn in that time frame, but amazing.

[lenny]

i love brahms, he does take time to get into but thats one of his charms 

i have a DVD of lugansky playing the op118, i watch it frequently and i love it more every time!

[SteinwayTony]

If you "hate" Brahms, I can't wait to hear who you "love."

Let me take a stab in the dark: Liszt?

 

[steinwayguy]

How can you hate on those Hungarian Dances, or the concertos, or the sonatas, or the Paganini Variatons, or the Handel Variations, or the Opus 10 Ballades, or Opus 116, or Opus 117, or Opus 118, or Opus 119, to name a few?

If you "hate" Brahms, I can't wait to hear who you "love."

Let me take a stab in the dark: Liszt?

 

Liszt is too much of a pure musician for them I think.

[SteinwayTony]

Call me an extremist, but anyone who dislikes Brahms' piano music likes piano music for all the wrong reasons.

[dinosaurtales]

Brahms runs hot and cold with me, too.  My teacher suggested that it's because he wrote all of his "big" piano works - the sonatas, when he was younger, and not so good at composition.  As he got older, he got much better at it, and his later works are much better compositionally.  I've listened to several groups of pieces - both early and late, and I think she is right.  See what you think.

[lenny]

Call me an extremist, but anyone who dislikes Brahms' piano music likes piano music for all the wrong reasons.

you are being a bit of an extremist there..

[galonia]

i love brahms, he does take time to get into but thats one of his charms

Exactly how I feel!

[orlandopiano]

am i the only person who hates brahms?

Brahms 1st symphony is my favorite symphonic work PERIOD.  And I like his piano concerti.  But I agree, his solo piano stuff is nothing special to me.

[pianostudent88]

I think Brahms piano writing is brilliant, take the concertos, the piano pieces op.116-119, handel variations etc etc.  The way he use large chords etc.  isn't necessarily unpianistic but important to make the warm and rich sound (orchestral if you want..) of the piano. I also like the how he use the piano as a rythmic instrument and I think his piano music is a challenge for all pianist!!   

[ujos3]

I found the Intermezzo in A major Op.118 one of the most romantic and emotive pieces in the pianistic repertoire. I like this work more than any Chopin or Lizst piece.

But I also recognize Brahms piano solo works are not easy to hear , they deserve many hearings sessions to get involved in them.

In fact, any great composer has his own personal language, so we should hear his works , "learn" his language and then it will be difficult not to like his works. Bach , Mozart, Beethoven, etc., each has a personal way to express himself . They use to repeat personal patterns in their pieces. They are doing personal works , that become universal because of their art craft and inspiration.

[SteinwayTony]

you are being a bit of an extremist there..

And my congratulations to you on another substantial and meaningful post.

[larse]

wow...look how this turned. We should really rename the post: Hooray Brahms! We love you!

[pianowelsh]

definately! I know im biased as im currently learning op117 but i have to say that I think Brahms is right up there with the very BEST writes for the piano. He understands and exploits its capabilities in a way really noone else does. As for saying his early works are weak surely NOone is seriously saying that the op5 sonata is poor - it has to be one of the finest sonatas in the repertoire?!

[DarkWind]

I personally like his Piano Works. The Intermezzo in E minor is incredible, and I love his Ballades.

[apion]

am i the only person who hates brahms?

Brahms has several masterpieces that are among the best in the repertoire:

Variations and Fugue on a theme by Handel
Paganini Variations
Piano Sonata No. 3

[/b]

I don't see how a person can dislike these very impressive tours de force.

[steinwayguy]

Brahms runs hot and cold with me, too. My teacher suggested that it's because he wrote all of his "big" piano works - the sonatas, when he was younger, and not so good at composition. As he got older, he got much better at it, and his later works are much better compositionally. I've listened to several groups of pieces - both early and late, and I think she is right. See what you think.

Yeah, those sonatas, very immature compositions...
Where in the hell did you get that idea?

Call me an extremist, but anyone who dislikes Brahms' piano music likes piano music for all the wrong reasons.

Agree.
I can't begin to imagine how you could dislike Brahms...

[apion]

Agree.
I can't begin to imagine how you could dislike Brahms...

I vigorously second that.

[SteinwayTony]

am i the only person who hates brahms?

In summation: Yes.

[Hmoll]

[rafant]

I think Brahms is right up there with the very BEST writes for the piano. He understands and exploits its capabilities in a way really noone else does

I agree and so I can't understand yet why Horowitz said that Brahms didn't know the piano, but he could play any Brahms' piece at the highest artistic level, whereas I'm only a keybanger.

I read his datailed biography and I sympathized with him. There was no spectacular events in his life, rather bored, and what I remember as the most significant was his love for Clara Schumann, but his music is inspired and sincere. Specially in the tender and serene beauty of the lyrical Intermezzi (from Op 117 to 119), which I love, I feel a man's soul, certainly solitary and resigned one, but still quite luminous.

[brsmpianist]

Just to let everyone know that if you really dont understand how to play Brahms correctly, then you will find it very much boring.  I guess its no fault of the pianist if he/she was never taught how to play it "right"...
I myself thought Brahms just ok to play and listen until my professor really opened my ears... all those "boring" intermezzos?  Its almost like a fugue... study the music and you will see lots of hidden melodies below what you thought was the melody in the rh and a boring lh... study the slurs and what notes it ties to and where the sfz's land...you will find things you didnt even know was there!   
If you just play Brahms the way its written with no attention to details, it will be boring.  Very very boring.  But played right... well its like a totally different piece!

[pianonut]

i agree!  the thing is that brahms wrote for different reasons than liszt.  liszt came up with the whole idea of a piano recital (all from memory).  before him, nobody cared if you played with the music, tho a lot of pianists were great at improvisation.  brahms on the other hand, was more of a chamber musician.  he liked things (as far as i can tell) on a more intimate level.  some pieces, it almost seems, he wrote just to express personal feelings (as one would in a letter).  sometimes it feels so intimate it makes you want to hide (if you accidentally play it really well) for exposing brahms innermost soul and for giving it to an audience instead of one or two people.

even though schumann wrote in 'art song' form, too,  (and tended to like shorter size compositions) i don't get the same feeling of exposing.  they are more veiled (less mass or heaviness) and have a lighter airier feeling.  if i were to choose pieces to thrill an audience, i would pick schumann over brahms.  but, if i were to play for an audience of musicians, i suppose brahms would be appreciated for it's difficulty to make sound 'just right.'

[gonzalo]

BRAHMS  S-U-C-K-S

[lisztisforkids]

GONZLAO S-U-C-K-S

[brahmsian]

BRAHMS S-U-C-K-S

I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion....

it's just some are wrong.

Many people (not anybody here specifically) when they think of Brahms only think of the Lullaby he wrote, and dismiss him without seeking out his better works. However, he wrote some incredibly powerful pieces such as his two piano concertos, or his first symphony. Granted his later works became much more introspective,  however this doesn't detract from the incredible character his pieces have. I agree that it may take a few listens to get into Brahms, however this is how music should be- you should have to listen to it to understand it.

P.S. What's with digging up old threads???

[ramseytheii]

am i the only person who hates brahms?

You are the latest in a long line of Brahms-haters.  Your great-great-great-grandfathers were Hugo Wolf and Tchaikovsky (a strange marriage; you see what bizarre love-childs they spawned). 

Wolf writes:
"The second number was Brahms' Piano Concerto in B-flat major, played by the composer himself.  Whoever can swallow this concerto with appetite, can calmly await a famine; it is to be assumed that he enjoys an enviable digestion, and in time of famine will be able to get along splendidly on the nutritive equivalent of window glass, cork stoppers, stove pipes and the like."

or:
"The retrograde movement of Brahms' production is striking.  True, he could never rise above the mediocre, but such nothingness, hollowness, such mousy obsequiousness as in the e minor symphony has never yet been revealed so alarmingly in any of Brahms' works.  The art of composing without ideas has decidedly found in Brahms one of its worthiest representatives."

and Tchaikovsky:
"I played over the music of that scoundrel Brahms.  What a giftless bastard!  It annoys me that this self-inflated mediocrity is hailed as a genius.  Why, in comparison to him, Raff is a giant, not to speak of Rubinstein, who is after all a live and important human being, while Brahms is chaotic and absolutely empty dried-up stuff."

So don't feel alone in your distaste towards the music of Brahms.  And don't worry about being too eloquent expressing your feelings in this matter - though your post indicates this is the least of your worries - as it has already been done for you.

But now I would like to follow humour with insight:
"[At one time] musical authorities in the highest places were fond of debunking Brahms as a dull, dry, thick, impotent, uninventive example of self-inflated mediocrity... how can it be that this beloved Brahms can once have been so misalinged? ...
And with an overwhelming consistency [the authorities] all agree on one basic fault: lack of invention.  Poor, blind people!  How could they not see that invention is the very substance of all Brahms' greatness?  As a matter of fact, Hugo Wolf inadvertently put his finger on the key to the whole problem when he said that Brahms knew the trick of creating something out of nothing.  For that is exactly what Brahms did... out of ideas and themes that in themselves may seem uneventful but that turn out to be loaded with symphonic dynamite.   How could Brahms' critics have missed this fact, reared as they were on the symphonic procedures of Beethoven? ... Hadn't they shared in the experience of the first movement of Beethoven's Fifth and watched in awe as three G's and an E-flat grew and grew, danced and played and fought and struggled until a monument had arisen? ... Didn't they know that a Greek temple is built out of dull blocks of stone, and that the ultimate beauty of the structure does not depend on the beauty of each separate block but on the imagination, the dream, that dictates how the blocks are to be put together?  That is the real invention - not just the invention of a tune, or a chord, or a bit of flossy orchestration.  Beethoven and Brahms were symphonists - gifted with the powers of symphonic invention, of musical architecture.  So much for Hugo Wolf and his pals."
-- Leonard Bernstein

Enjoy!
Walter Ramsey

[lisztisforkids]

Nicely put. 

[g_s_223]

Brahms' piano style is quite personal, and involves some fairly unorthodox techniques, particularly a developed use of both thumbs and large leaps in the LH. On the other hand, there is little brilliant "passage-work" of the kind one finds in Chopin or Rachmaninoff.

For me, there is a wonderful warmth in his music, coupled with craftsmanship of the highest order. If it's not your bag, just pass on...

[mikey6]

Even Alkan knew when to just cool it.  It's so.... i don't know.  just LOUD.  and constant! 

I wouldn't put Alkan and Brahms in the same league - one needs to be re-discovered and played by speciaslists in rare repertoire whilst the other has survived becuase he is one of the smartest geniuses western music has known.
Where is Brahms loud constantly? I think Liszt takes the cake for that (mind you I like Liszt as well).  Brahms' sound is generally thick and he packs a punch in the climaxes but the 'loud' parts are always intergrated into some masterly structure.
but ahm, you hate him becuase he's loud? is that the only reason? (I haven't read every line sorry), but there's got to be more of a reson surely!
As for the sonata's, the fmin stands at the pinnicle of sonata form alonside the Liszt sonata (at opposite polls of course).

[burstroman]

Brahms is poetry translated to the piano,literally.

[apion]

BRAHMS  S-U-C-K-S

Gonzalo, please furnish us with scores to your two piano concerti which demonstrate your superiority to Brahms' concerti.  We look forward to scrutinizing your accomplishments.

[gonzalo]

Gonzalo, please furnish us with scores to your two piano concerti which demonstrate your superiority to Brahms' concerti.  We look forward to scrutinizing your accomplishments.

You would never admit my superiority anyway...

[lisztisforkids]

You would never admit my superiority anyway...

Because we wouldent need to. 

[BoliverAllmon]

oh that is real mature at least a fifth grade level.

[thierry13]

Because we wouldent need to. 

Hurr... yes... You can remove the sunglasses, that wasn't cool at all.

[tds]

i had a dream....i was reading a music book, and i saw myself nodding, not sure why. perhaps i was sleepy? anyway, it reads:

bach, the spirit
mozart, the soul
beethoven, the brain
brahms, the heart
liszt, the dick*






*small but active....

[gorbee natcase]

i had a dream....i was reading a music book, and i saw myself nodding, not sure why. perhaps i was sleepy? anyway, it reads:

bach, the spirit
mozart, the soul
beethoven, the brain
brahms, the heart
liszt, the dick*






*small but active....

I don't know quite how to respond to that

[march05]

skepto,

i feel the same about brahms. luv the piano concerti, violin sonatas, cello sonatas etc. but i only like a few of his solo piano music. i find many of his solo pieces too moody and long. i like some of the capriccios, the op. 118/2, 118/3, waltzs, some of the hungarian dances, and (no choice about) the paganini variations. i've only played the sonata op 2, and i like it so so (haven't tried the popular sonata op. 5). actually, i have his complete piano solo music, and to be honest, from the pieces i've sightread, there's not much else that i really like...

[apion]

skepto,

i feel the same about brahms. luv the piano concerti, violin sonatas, cello sonatas etc. but i only like a few of his solo piano music. i find many of his solo pieces too moody and long. i like some of the capriccios, the op. 118/2, 118/3, waltzs, some of the hungarian dances, and (no choice about) the paganini variations. i've only played the sonata op 2, and i like it so so (haven't tried the popular sonata op. 5). actually, i have his complete piano solo music, and to be honest, from the pieces i've sightread, there's not much else that i really like...

You might want to try Brahms Variations and Fugue on a Theme by Handel -- a towering masterpiece in every respect, and very, very fun to play and listen to!

[pianistimo]

or 'variations on a theme by haydn' for two pianos  op.56b

[apion]

or 'variations on a theme by haydn' for two pianos  op.56b

Or Brahms Schumann Variations Op 9 or his Variations on an Original Theme, op. 21 (1).