Quadruplets of double dotted quarter notes

[ravelfan07]

I’m planning to write 16th notes over this in the treble clef
What polyrhythm would this equate too?
Since the quadruplets don’t equate to a whole value, was just curious

[ravelfan07]

I’m planning to write 16th notes over this in the treble clef
What polyrhythm would this equate too?
Since the quadruplets don’t equate to a whole value, was just curious

If you’re curious I was inspired by this section of Réminiscences de Don Juan

[jamienc]

If the meter is 5/4, then the four 16ths in the bass are one beat in value total. If you wanted a cross-rhythm you would have to borrow from a compound meter and use a whatever subdivision you like to create the effect, or write an uneven number of subdivisions over your meter. For example, in the Liszt piece you added, he achieves this effect by writing the RH with an uneven number of 16ths (15) over a 12/16 meter. This would be approximately 5 against 4 considering the beat.

[ravelfan07]

If the meter is 5/4, then the four 16ths in the bass are one beat in value total. If you wanted a cross-rhythm you would have to borrow from a compound meter and use a whatever subdivision you like to create the effect, or write an uneven number of subdivisions over your meter. For example, in the Liszt piece you added, he achieves this effect by writing the RH with an uneven number of 16ths (15) over a 12/16 meter. This would be approximately 5 against 4 considering the beat.

I understand what you are saying about the cross rhythm and compound meter, however
Unless there’s a misunderstanding, I counted 18 16ths in the measure

[jamienc]

I understand what you are saying about the cross rhythm and compound meter, however
Unless there’s a misunderstanding, I counted 18 16ths in the measure

Ok, so in the first measure of the Liszt, there are 18 in the RH, then 19, then 15 in the descending thirds, then 18 again. The LH stays in a constant meter with the correct number of 16ths across each bar. If you break down the measures that have true rhythmic and metrical cross rhythms (mm. 1, 3, and 4) you would get 6 against 4, 5 against 4, and then 6 against 4, respectively. The only measure that doesn’t work out so evenly is measure 2 of the excerpt. Metrically and rhythmically the RH there doesn’t match the LH. It is similar to Chopin when he writes, say, a flurry of 11 sixteenth notes over a full beat where the LH stays constant. I think there is an example of that if you look at the first page of Chopin’s first Nocturne. To make things clearer in the Liszt excerpt, that second measure should have a bracket “19” over those notes.

Also, your example has a meter of 5/4, but I see a dotted quarter rest after the notes in the LH. That is incorrect usage of notation based upon your meter. You would have to make up somehow for the remaining beat-and-a-half before the measure ends, and typically with simple meters you shouldn’t obscure where the start of each beat is in the measure. That dotted quarter rest would obscure beat four and the next visual beat on the page would be shown on the “and” of beat four. If you meant to put a half rest with a dot, that would be visually correct in the notation. Looking again at the Liszt, the 4th measure in the LH is notated incorrectly, as the last two rests should be two dotted 8th rests. That quarter rest obscures the first 16th of the last beat.

On the first two beats of your excerpt, there is no need to put a “4” on those 16ths because it is implied by the meter. That is not a metrical or rhythmic cross rhythm against the meter. The “4” indications are redundant. If you wanted those 16ths to be an actual “borrowing” to create a cross rhythm in the LH, you would need to change the meter to 15/8. It would result in 5 groups of three 8th notes each, rendering the LH figures truly cross-rhythmic, and the dotted quarter rest would be notationally correct.

[lelle]

Why not notate the left hand as normal sixteenths in 4/4 or 2/4 or something like that, and make the right hand a tuplet which fits whatever amount of notes you want to play over the bass line? Seems more intuitive to read to me.