Tchakovsky - June (for small hands)

[perfect_pitch]

What would be the best way to learn the notes in the following bars for someone who has REALLY small hands (can just reach an octave in both hands but their finger spread is quite slim) but is desperate to learn this piece... remembering this would be for an exam or performance and they are being assessed on.



Would it be best (in an exam situation) to:

a) Omit the thumb note in each of the chords in the RH and play it as smoothly as possible without that note or
b) Roll the chord which is still quite awkward for them given the shape of some of the chords for their small hands

Let me know... I've never dealt with a student with hands this small.

[frodo4]

What would be the best way to learn the notes in the following bars for someone who has REALLY small hands (can just reach an octave in both hands but their finger spread is quite slim) but is desperate to learn this piece... remembering this would be for an exam or performance and they are being assessed on.



Would it be best (in an exam situation) to:

a) Omit the thumb note in each of the chords in the RH and play it as smoothly as possible without that note or
b) Roll the chord which is still quite awkward for them given the shape of some of the chords for their small hands

Let me know... I've never dealt with a student with hands this small.

I love this piece and can understand your student's great desire to play it!  Me personally: I would have the student learn it both ways.  It is much preferred to not leave these notes out, but it does not sound terrible if your suggested notes are omitted.  I'm not sure how the exam judge or jury would feel about the missed notes.  They will certainly notice them not being played.

If playing these notes causes the performance to lose a naturally sounding flow, then your student should skip the notes in a non-exam performance.  For the exam, possibly you could talk to the exam judge immediately before the exam and ask what he prefers?  You can explain to the judge about the hand size and ask if it is okay to omit the notes.  But explain that your student can play it without omitting any notes if required.

Also, by playing it both ways, it is possible that the version without omitted notes will start to sound more natural over time and will have the same flow as the version with omitted notes - if you can follow what I am saying here.

Anyway - this is my opinion

[themeandvariation]

I notice that the 4th finger is indicated for top note. Can they hit the chord using the 5th? (Of course, they'd have to lift the 5 over to the following eighth note - (note ideal) - but I think this is preferable to rolling , and preferable to dropping out the low note, -  which emphasizes the melody.

[perfect_pitch]

Me personally: I would have the student learn it both ways.  It is much preferred to not leave these notes out, but it does not sound terrible if your suggested notes are omitted.  I'm not sure how the exam judge or jury would feel about the missed notes.  They will certainly notice them not being played.

My thinking is that the arpeggiation of the notes seems clunkier than the removal of a single note in each chord... plus given the actual chords themselves - I don't think most examiners would actually notice if they were missing; because of the tight cluster of notes up the top (the C-Eb-F) and the fact that there is still a high F in the chord - I don't think most examiners would notice the missing lower F. I think if you took out any other single note - it would be more identifiable...

Also, my student is trying to do her Masters in Psychology, but loves doing Piano as a hobby but doesn't have as much practice time as she'd like - so it would probably be preferable to get her practising one way and committing to it.

In a perfect world with lots of practice time - I'd definitely agree with trying both ways. I have small hands (not that small though) and I can play the full chord, but even I think arpeggiating it just takes away from the simplicity of the passage to me.

Thoughts?

I notice that the 4th finger is indicated for top note. Can they hit the chord using the 5th? (Of course, they'd have to lift the 5 over to the following eighth note - (note ideal)

Thought of that as well, but this would break the slur... to me that sounds like a 'no-no'.

[frodo4]

My thinking is that the arpeggiation of the notes seems clunkier than the removal of a single note in each chord... plus given the actual chords themselves - I don't think most examiners would actually notice if they were missing; because of the tight cluster of notes up the top (the C-Eb-F) and the fact that there is still a high F in the chord - I don't think most examiners would notice the missing lower F. I think if you took out any other single note - it would be more identifiable...

Also, my student is trying to do her Masters in Psychology, but loves doing Piano as a hobby but doesn't have as much practice time as she'd like - so it would probably be preferable to get her practising one way and committing to it.

In a perfect world with lots of practice time - I'd definitely agree with trying both ways. I have small hands (not that small though) and I can play the full chord, but even I think arpeggiating it just takes away from the simplicity of the passage to me.

Thoughts?

It seems that in many pieces, there are always a couple small spots that give trouble.  This includes people with normal sized hands. I'm a big fan of omitting a couple of selected notes in these places and then adding them back in later.  This way you can have a musical, flowing performance at the desired tempo in a slightly simpler version. 

"Arpeggiation of the notes seems clunkier than the removal of a single note in each chord" - agreed.

"I don't think most examiners would actually notice if they were missing" - They will if they are watching the hands closely.  But this assumes they are familiar with the score and some may not be.

If you feel the examiners will not notice or care, then I agree - omit the notes.  Let the music flow!

[themeandvariation]

"Thought of that as well, but this would break the slur... to me that sounds like a 'no-no'."

Yes, the slur. I was thinking she might just use the pedal at that spot.. but if no pedal is being used for the piece, it would be too obvious I suppose. So, in that case, I agree, and have her drop the low note. 

[lostinidlewonder]

"Thought of that as well, but this would break the slur... to me that sounds like a 'no-no'."

Yes, the slur. I was thinking she might just use the pedal at that spot.. but if no pedal is being used for the piece, it would be too obvious I suppose. So, in that case, I agree, and have her drop the low note.

Pedal is completely fine.

If this is for examinations choose a piece which fits the hands appropriately some examiners really don't take the hand size into any consideration.

[perfect_pitch]

Pedal is completely fine.

If this is for examinations choose a piece which fits the hands appropriately some examiners really don't take the hand size into any consideration.

Not sure if I have the luxury. She is doing Grade 8 and there are many large chords, stretched arpeggio sequences etc... There aren't that many Grade 8 pieces where someone with small hands will easily combat, and trying to narrow someones repertoire list to only those that they are comfortable with (if they were mandated to play every single note on the page as written) seems unfair.

[lostinidlewonder]

The choice outside of the grade books is quite large if you check the syllabus. In this case she should use just the 5 for the chord which hopefully isn't too difficult to reach.

[frodo4]

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[frodo4]

After further thought:  I agree with Themeandvariation/Lostinidlewonder on this one.  This assumes the student can play with reasonable comfort using the 5th finger for the top note of the chord (instead of 4) and without needing to roll chords and with proper use of sustain pedal. Otherwise - yank those notes IMO. 

I'm sure you will make a good decision for your student.

[perfect_pitch]

I think in my head - the use of 5 for the whole chord as written can be done, but you're essentially having to lift the 5 finger multiple times in succession - lifting off the single note to get to the chord, and lifting again to get to the single note above before trying to finish the final chord in the slur.

Since the top note is doubled at the bottom of the chord, I think it's best to retain the smooth slur and omit the doubled note at the bottom. She struggles rolling with even the 4 as well, but I think for an exam - the control of the sound is what is mostly important.

Thanks for all the discussion points from everyone. It's nice to see what other people think... I mean, I have smallish hands for a guy but my student has a very narrow (really narrow) stretch.

The choice outside of the grade books is quite large if you check the syllabus.

Yes, I know there is a whole manual list of pieces, but I don't think she has the time and energy going through them all.

[lostinidlewonder]

I think in my head - the use of 5 for the whole chord as written can be done, but you're essentially having to lift the 5 finger multiple times in succession - lifting off the single note to get to the chord, and lifting again to get to the single note above before trying to finish the final chord in the slur.

It's going to be indiscernible maintaining the legato with the pedal and using the 5 will be the easiest physically for her thus improving the control and sound.

Yes, I know there is a whole manual list of pieces, but I don't think she has the time and energy going through them all.

When finding selections usually I would present options to the student without playing every single option. You can guage their taste and physical capabilities and reduce what is considered.

[perfect_pitch]

It's going to be indiscernible maintaining the legato with the pedal and using the 5 will be the easiest physically for her thus improving the control and sound.
When finding selections usually I would present options to the student without playing every single option. You can guage their taste and physical capabilities and reduce what is considered.

Maybe... but I don't want her to overuse the pedal. I used to have that habit - I would almost pedal everything as a youngster... even passages where it might sound nice with the pedal, but it was clearly the composers intention not to do it and just use finger legato.

Also, the student is an adult - they've ALWAYS been the sort of person who has chosen their repertoire and come to me wanting to learn it. Given they genuinely wanted to learn this as their own choosing - it seemed inappropriate to tell them to try and limit their repertoire to their physical capabilities.

There was a small russian woman at university who couldn't really reach a 9th, but my god - I was gob-smacked when I saw her play Chopins Ballade No. 1. She had the most relaxed wrist I have to admit.

[lostinidlewonder]

I think the piece works fine with pedalling, playing it without pedal throughout would be a little odd based on its style.

Also, the student is an adult - they've ALWAYS been the sort of person who has chosen their repertoire and come to me wanting to learn it. Given they genuinely wanted to learn this as their own choosing - it seemed inappropriate to tell them to try and limit their repertoire to their physical capabilities.

In this case the physical limitations can be solved so it's no big deal. I mean in general the selection of works should fit the students hands appropriately and carefully selected to reflect so.

[perfect_pitch]

I think the piece works fine with pedalling, playing it without pedal throughout would be a little odd based on its style.

I didn't mean that... I just don't think every single beat or almost every single note needs to have pedal.

[lostinidlewonder]

I didn't mean that... I just don't think every single beat or almost every single note needs to have pedal.

Yeah well your talk about finger legato and overusing pedal etc made me think you avoid using it. In the case under examination here the pedal is completely fine and there is no reason to avoid it.