Hardest pieces by every composer?

[liszt-and-the-galops]

It's been a few years since the other thread was posted in, so I figured I might as well make a new topic.

Anyways, what do you guys believe to be the hardest pieces by various composers? I'm not going to limit this to just well-known composers like Liszt. Feel free to throw in all the Alkan, Mereaux, and Xenakis you want!

Personally, (off the top of my head)
Liszt: Transcriptions of Beethoven's 9 Symphonies
         Also: S. 137 Douze Grande Etudes, S. 253 Spanish Fantasy

Chopin: Op. 25 Etudes
             Also: Ballade no. 4, Sonata no. 3

Beethoven: Hammerklavier

Mozart: K. 576 Sonata

Scarlatti: K. 141
             Also: K. 120

R. Schumann: Toccata
                      Also: Symphonic Etudes, Fantasy

Brahms: Paganini Variations

Debussy: Etudes

Godowsky: 53 Studies on Chopin's Etudes

Rachmaninoff: Concerto no. 3

Alkan: Op. 39

Scriabin: Sonata no. 8
               Also: Sonatas no. 5-7, 9-10, Op. 42 Etudes

Balakirev: Islamey

Ravel: Gaspard de la Nuit
           Also: Miroirs, La Valse

Stravinsky: Petrushka

Mereaux: Op. 63 Etudes

Sorabji: Sonata no. 5 Opus Archimagicum
             Also: Literally everything he wrote, but in particular Symphonic Variations

Xenakis: Evryali
              Also: Literally everything he wrote, but in particular Synaphai

Ligeti: Etudes

Albeniz: Iberia

Finnissy: English Country Tunes

Schubert: D. 958

Faure: Ballade Op. 19

Ives: Sonata no. 2 "Concord"

Messiaen: Vingt Regards
               Also: Catalogue D'oiseaux

Joplin: The Entertainer
         Also: Sugar Cane Rag, Easy Winners, The Cascades

Any other works that I'm missing, or composers that I missed? (I know I didn't include Bach, but I feel that he should be left out of difficulty discussions.)

[thorn]

A huge oversight in these threads (I was too late to nominate it to the tournament before, polls had already started) is Albeniz Iberia. The hardest movement is Lavapies- Albeniz himself almost burned it because he couldn't play it and the majority of pianists in this compilation are clearly struggling (Hamelin being one of them)

In fact, the best recording of that piece is a guitar arrangement. I don't think any pianist completely nails it.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

A huge oversight in these threads (I was too late to nominate it to the tournament before, polls had already started)

I'm honestly not sure if I would've allowed it anyways: it's probably just too difficult. There's always next year, though! 

Albeniz Iberia. The hardest movement is Lavapies- Albeniz himself almost burned it because he couldn't play it and the majority of pianists in this compilation are clearly struggling (Hamelin being one of them)

I personally believe that Lavapies is about the same difficulty as the Allegretto, Piu animato, quasi Presto, and Prestissimo sections of the Spanish Fantasy (played at 8:13, 10:45, and 12:13 in the video below, respectively), combined.

Obviously the full Iberia is way harder than the Spanish Fantasy, though that's mostly due to it's sheer length. Compared to the complete Transcriptions of Beethoven's Symphonies, Mereaux's Etudes, and many other excruciatingly difficult works, however, it's as easy as Fur Elise.

[gasplamey]

Any other works that I'm missing, or composers that I missed? (I know I didn't include Bach, but I feel that he should be left out of difficulty discussions.)

Evryali is not Xenakis' hardest piece.
As mentioned, Albeniz' Iberia is truly insane.
I'd also like to add Ives' Sonata no. 2.

I personally believe that Lavapies is about the same difficulty as the Allegretto, Piu animato, quasi Presto, and Prestissimo sections of the Spanish Fantasy (played at 8:13, 10:45, and 12:13 in the video below, respectively), combined.

Are you out of your mind? The entire Fantasy is much easier than Lavapies, at least musically.

Also, why group Alkan's op. 39? Including the Concerto, Symphony, and 5 other difficult etudes in one work seems unfair, even if they have the same opus no. I have the same question about grouping Liszt's Transcriptions of Beethoven's Symphonies.

[lelle]

Possibly this?

[thorn]

I think that since standard piano repertoire is like 90% Baroque-Romantic, with Liszt, Chopin, Alkan etc as the technical peak of this, most people's idea of difficulty is based on that blueprint. It's why people think stuff like La Campanella and Winter Wind are more difficult than Scarbo.

The thing about technique is it's always evolving- Liszt played Islamey but struggled with Faure. Why? Because Islamey wasn't anything new to him. Back to Albeniz- there's an unspecified Liszt fantasy in his concert repertoire which given his strong championing of Spanish music could have been the Spanish Fantasy. But in any case, other Liszt in Albeniz's concert programs included Rhapsodie espagnole, Rigoletto paraphrase, Venezia e Napoli, Hungarian Fantasy, three unspecified etudes, two unspecified transcriptions. So again, if Albeniz could play all that yet almost burned Lavapies for being unplayable then this is another example of piano technique evolving beyond the Romantic blueprint.

Last thing to throw out there- people only talk about technical and musical difficulty. With stuff like Iberia (and Petrushka, Ligeti Etudes etc etc) there's also difficulty of memorising. Even if we said both Spanish Fantasy and Lavapies were a 10 on both technical and musical difficulty, you could memorise the three sections of the Spanish Fantasy pinpointed above significantly faster than the opening pages of Lavapies because for all its technical difficulty it's harmonically simple. 

[pianistavt]

I came across this video on YT, asking the very same question, with answers and examples - - thought y'all might be interested to look at it:

&t=117s

[gasplamey]

I came across this video on YT, asking the very same question, with answers and examples - - thought y'all might be interested to look at it:

&t=117s

I've watched several of his videos regarding difficulty. He gets some things right that many others don't, but also gets some things laughably wrong.
For instance, Scarlatti's K. 120 is infinitely easier than K. 141, at least in my experience (I find the latter harder than most Chopin Etudes, while the same cannot be said for the former).
He also doesn't group pieces within a larger work (or groups them rather arbitrarily)(e.g. Mazeppa and Feux Follets vs. Transcendental Etudes, despite the fact that he groups Scriabin's Sonatas together), which leads to some strange rankings. (For example, Liszt's S. 139 is definitely more difficult than Don Jaun, but Don Jaun is placed higher than any of the Etudes.)
I thought his "100 hardest pieces" video was an April Fools joke at first.

Possibly this?

In terms of the modern (post-Sorabji) pianists, Xenakis absolutely wrote the hardest pieces. Even Xenakis' hardest work alone (Synaphai) is beyond that of the complete works of most other composers, difficulty-wise. His Evryali is easily the hardest thing ever written that doesn't last 5 hours. I'd say that it's even at the level of Sorabji's 6-hour long Opus Archimagicum, his hardest piece.

However, let's ignore those terrible writers and focus on the people who made an effort to write decent music.

Speaking of, Czerny's hardest piece, that I know of, is the op. 299 Etudes from "School of Velocity." I'm too knowlegdable when it comes to Czerny, so there's probably something harder he wrote.

[pianistavt]

Speaking of, Czerny's hardest piece, that I know of, is the op. 299 Etudes from "School of Velocity." I'm too knowlegdable when it comes to Czerny, so there's probably something harder he wrote.

I guess I've made somewhat of a reputation here as a Czerny enthusiast.  I can tell you that op 299 is definitely not the hardest opus.  Probably one of his sonatas.  His Toccata is quite difficult, it's kind of famous for being a staple in the Wieck household, where Schumann was living for a while.  Schumann's Toccata is clearly a commentary on Czerny's.  I think Czerny was left off your Toccata post...

[essence]

Messiaen's Vingt regards must be up there.

I agree about Iberia. Sometimes it is the length of the music that makes it difficult.

Scriabin sonata 8 does not at first seem difficult, but there is so much jumping and splitting of melodies between hands that it is very very tricky. I once performed it at a local event as a amateur. i would never consider trying to memorise it.

I also played some of the Vingts Regards at a student concert.
 
I also find some of Faure's nocturnes surprisingly difficult. Kempff did a wonderful recording

[gasplamey]

I think Czerny was left off your Toccata post...

That was latg's post, not mine.

I can tell you that op 299 is definitely not the hardest opus.  Probably one of his sonatas.  His Toccata is quite difficult, it's kind of famous for being a staple in the Wieck household, where Schumann was living for a while.  Schumann's Toccata is clearly a commentary on Czerny's.

Interesting. It certainly does seem suspiciously similar.

Which of the sonatas would you say is hardest?

[pianistavt]

Which of the sonatas would you say is hardest?

I haven't explored Czerny's non-pedagogical works.  Whenever I've started to listen I stop before a few minutes have passed - doesn't capture my interest.  It's rather incredible that this composer published over 800 opera for solo piano and none of it is in the concert repertoire.  Maybe that will change some day, maybe not.

[thorn]

Messiaen's Vingt regards must be up there.

While the VR are difficult I would say Messiaen's "hardest" solo piano work is Catalogue d'oiseaux.

[transitional]

I'll throw my 2nd favorite composer, Schubert, in, and I think his hardest piece might not be the Wanderer Fantasy. It's familiar technique that's utilized very fully. However, the D 958 sonata's finale looks to me to be his most difficult piece (not including Liszt transcriptions) because of the need to understand Schubert's utilization of lengthy structure along with more than 10 key changes (very unpredictable to memorize) and other technical difficulties like fast repeated chords and a steady pulse.

Another composer I really like is Fauré, but the answer is definitely the Ballade for him.

I don't listen to too much Joplin but I'm wondering what you guys think of difficulty when it comes to his pieces.

[pianistavt]

I don't listen to too much Joplin but I'm wondering what you guys think of difficulty when it comes to his pieces.

The YT video I posted above, someone's take on the hardest pieces by composer, include Scott Joplin - and it's The Cascades, presumably because there are some octaves?  I think most of his more difficult pieces are of the same difficulty - - Easy Winners, Sugar Cane Rag.  The 2nd section of The Entertainer isn't easy, with those serial octave chords in the rh.

[gasplamey]

I'll throw my 2nd favorite composer, Schubert, in, and I think his hardest piece might not be the Wanderer Fantasy. It's familiar technique that's utilized very fully. However, the D 958 sonata's finale looks to me to be his most difficult piece (not including Liszt transcriptions)

Of the Liszt transcriptions, I believe Erlkonig is the hardest.
On the note of Liszt transcriptions, should we put Liszt's transcriptions of Beethoven's Symphonies under Beethoven, Liszt, or both? Latg put them under Liszt, but I believe they should be under both since Beethoven wrote the originals.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

On the note of Liszt transcriptions, should we put Liszt's transcriptions of Beethoven's Symphonies under Beethoven, Liszt, or both? Latg put them under Liszt, but I believe they should be under both since Beethoven wrote the originals.

I put them under Liszt because he was the one who transcribed it for piano.

For Czerny, I believe it's Op. 268, which is almost impossible at tempo:

The fastest recording of the full thing I've seen is ~29 minutes. It was written for ~21. The above video is just the last movement.

I've also updated the OP with all the pieces mentioned here, except for the Czerny piece (that's still open discussion as far as I'm concerned).

Also, hardest work by Prokofiev?

[thorn]

Speaking of transcriptions, Gryaznov's ones of La Valse (Ravel) and Prelude à l'après-midi d'un faune (Debussy) are more difficult than the originals. I'd possibly say the Ravel is unnecessarily difficult but the Debussy is an absolute gem.

Also should have mentioned the other big Spanish names- Granados Goyescas (especially Los Requiebros) and Falla Fantasia Betica.

Szymanowski has to be on the list too- my vote is for Sonata 3, a cross between Impressionism and late Scriabin.

[pianistavt]

For Czerny, I believe it's Op. 268, which is almost impossible at tempo:

This reminds me of an incredibly difficult classical piece from the same time period - - the sonata in f# minor by Hummel, particularly the 3rd mvmt:

Schumann said this is the only piece by Hummel that will be remembered ....

[thorn]

Also, hardest work by Prokofiev?

The 2nd concerto (assuming these count since Rachmaninoff's 3rd is already in the list)

[cuberdrift]

I haven't explored Czerny's non-pedagogical works.  Whenever I've started to listen I stop before a few minutes have passed - doesn't capture my interest.  It's rather incredible that this composer published over 800 opera for solo piano and none of it is in the concert repertoire.  Maybe that will change some day, maybe not.

I'm happy that the Op. 268 is getting some exposure. To go off-tangent a little bit from this thread, I'd be a little surprised if you didn't enjoy any of the works in this list:

[transitional]

A little late now, but the Schubert isn't as bad as I originally thought it was. I read it several times and it's pretty fun once you get the hang of it. Back to the Wanderer Fantasy then, but I was trying to avoid it because it's one of the most mentioned Schubert pieces and being from my favorite composer, I don't actually love it that much.

[essence]

I wouldn;t want to play the piano part of his Eb trio in public. Length, articulation, stress, no way back if you miss a beat.

[lelle]

A little late now, but the Schubert isn't as bad as I originally thought it was. I read it several times and it's pretty fun once you get the hang of it. Back to the Wanderer Fantasy then, but I was trying to avoid it because it's one of the most mentioned Schubert pieces and being from my favorite composer, I don't actually love it that much.

I have never understood the hype with the Wanderer fantasy to be honest. Oh wow he is using a recurring motif in each part? Such advanced. The material isn't that interesting and he has written many things that are way better.

[galltywenallt]

Tippett sonata no.3. The last few pages were widely regarded as unplayable when it was published. Maybe they still are. One pianist who plays it, might have been Peter Donohue, reckoned it wasn't necessary to play it accurately as it was the generally effect that matters.