Robert Schumann

[geister]

Hello guys. This is my first topic here. Going to dig around a bit in older topics, I couldn't help but notice that Schumann is not only one of the least appreciated composers here, but also one of the most detested and discredited. I'm sure that almost everyone will find what I'm about to say so outrageous and blasphemous that some might think that my intent is only to provoke, so I want to clarify that I am not joking at all. For me, Schumann was a god of music. His genius was even greater than Bach or Beethoven's one, and the fact that he had such a sad and tormented life, and that in life (and still today) he enjoyed so little recognition breaks my heart (seriously). When I listen to or play his music, his emotions come to me so directly that is almost overwhelming. His music is raw, true, vibrant. The fact that such a boundless genius and such a great soul (Schumann was perhaps the kindest and most enthusiastic composer towards his colleagues) is ignored by most, while a mediocre and inconsistent composer like Chopin, with his stupid, cloying and faux-poetic living room melodies is venerated as the Messiah of music is an unfathomable mystery to me. I think this world is sick.

[sonata_5]

I don’t think all those other composers are bad also don’t just randomly bash composers you don’t like! I do mot like Stravinsky and Schoenberg but that doesn’t mean it is bad! Maybe it is the restrained romanticism. Schumann is also one of my favorites and he dosen’t deserve to be bashed like this.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Going to dig around a bit in older topics, I couldn't help but notice that Schumann is not only one of the least appreciated composers here, but also one of the most detested and discredited.

This thread gave some good laughs and explanations as to why so many people hated Schumann here:
https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=69664

For me, Schumann was a god of music. His genius was even greater than Bach or Beethoven's one, and the fact that he had such a sad and tormented life, and that in life (and still today) he enjoyed so little recognition breaks my heart (seriously).

More important than Beethoven? I can understand.
More important than Bach? Please, give me some of what you're smoking.

in life (and still today) he enjoyed so little recognition breaks my heart (seriously). When I listen to or play his music, his emotions come to me so directly that is almost overwhelming. His music is raw, true, vibrant.

The same is true for Alkan, most of the time.

a mediocre and inconsistent composer like Chopin, with his stupid, cloying and faux-poetic living room melodies is venerated as the Messiah of music

Every single part of that is wrong.
Chopin is far from "inconsistent," was a genius, and wasn't trying to be as poetic as composers like Liszt and Ravel (who literally transcribed poems for piano).
"Living room melodies" What could you possibly mean by this?
Also, no one treats him as the "Messiah of music," at least that I've seen.

[transitional]

I don't think I would consider many of the romantics "genius". However, I absolutely love Schumann's piano works too and do think there's an emotional directness and connection that not many composers come close to. If you read the thread that liszt-and-the-galops attached, you can see some reasons. (I had a really fun time reading that too.) According to thalbergmad, the hate for Schumann comes from the piano concerto. I don't like his piano concerto either and find it to be boring A Minor dragging melodies, but have to say that his piano output has some of my all time favorites including the relatable, spontaneous Humoreske.

Also, don't compare him so harshly to other composers. To each their own, and I don't get the hate either, but calling Chopin whatever you did is a bit extreme. I'm not the biggest Chopin fan, and used to not like him, but I doubt you really think that about him. It seems you're using your opinion of Chopin et al to conflate your view on Schumann's music.

I'm curious, what are some of your favorite Schumann pieces, and why do you see him as such a magnificent composer? IMO he's one of the best composers in terms of solo piano pieces, but would love to hear more of your thoughts on the matter.

[geister]

I don’t think all those other composers are bad also don’t just randomly bash composers you don’t like! I do mot like Stravinsky and Schoenberg but that doesn’t mean it is bad! Maybe it is the restrained romanticism. Schumann is also one of my favorites and he dosen’t deserve to be bashed like this.

I never said Beethoven and Bach are bad composers (it'd be a cyclopean proportions bullshit); I love them from the bottom of my heart, actually; I said what I said, namely that Schumann's genius (with "Genius" here meaning creative flair, deep understanding of "form" and everything that might go by the name of "musical intelligence") is superior to that of the above-mentioned composers. In fact, I 'bashed' only Chopin.

More important than Beethoven? I can understand.
More important than Bach? Please, give me some of what you're smoking.

I did not mention importance, also because if you mean “importance” from a historical point of view (i. e. how the musical output of Bach and Beethoven influenced later composers), then it is obvious Schumann is not that important.

.Every single part of that is wrong.
Chopin is far from "inconsistent," was a genius, and wasn't trying to be as poetic as composers like Liszt and Ravel (who literally transcribed poems for piano).
"Living room melodies" What could you possibly mean by this?
Also, no one treats him as the "Messiah of music," at least that I've seen.

Well, sorry to disappoint you, nothing Chopin wrote has ever caught my attention or exerted any fascination on me. I consider him the most mediocre of composers, capable only of creating catchy melodies for aristocratic "living-rooms"  and lacking any compositional skill whatsoever. He never innovated, never experimented, he was capable of creating not-so-bad melodies but the problem is that was then unable to develop them; in the few compositions that contain a hint of counterpoint (Ballade 4, for example) it is evident that his ability to think polyphonically was very poor; his musical vision was dichotomous (and therefore blindly close-minded): melody for the right hand, accompaniment for the left). The truth is that he wrote almost only for piano not because he really wanted to write only for this instrument, but because he was unable to write for an ensemble, let alone for orchestra; i will say more: truthfully, he was not able to write decently (although many claim that he is the most pianistic composer of all) even for piano, since his works contain bits so uncomfortable and absurd that one would think that he worked as a madman with the precise aim of writing in the way that is the most adverse to the natural anatomy and physiology of the hand, and don't tell me that I'm just envious because these bits don't turn out well for me: They're not difficult, they're badly written.
 

I don't think I would consider many of the romantics "genius". However, I absolutely love Schumann's piano works too and do think there's an emotional directness and connection that not many composers come close to. If you read the thread that liszt-and-the-galops attached, you can see some reasons. (I had a really fun time reading that too.) According to thalbergmad, the hate for Schumann comes from the piano concerto. I don't like his piano concerto either and find it to be boring A Minor dragging melodies, but have to say that his piano output has some of my all time favorites including the relatable, spontaneous Humoreske.

Also, don't compare him so harshly to other composers. To each their own, and I don't get the hate either, but calling Chopin whatever you did is a bit extreme. I'm not the biggest Chopin fan, and used to not like him, but I doubt you really think that about him. It seems you're using your opinion of Chopin et al to conflate your view on Schumann's music.

I'm curious, what are some of your favorite Schumann pieces, and why do you see him as such a magnificent composer? IMO he's one of the best composers in terms of solo piano pieces, but would love to hear more of your thoughts on the matter.

I will answer you as soon as possibile. Now I haven't enough time.

[thorn]

I don't think I would consider many of the romantics "genius".

I just posted about this in the unpopular opinion thread so won't repeat it here. Weird coincidence though!

I don't idolise or hate Schumann or Chopin. I rarely feel like playing either- I don't find Schumann comfortable in my hands and as for Chopin, the price of him being so loved is his music is suffocated by tradition- people will spend an hour telling you the "right" way to play the opening of Ballade 1 when I've seen masterclasses on the whole of Ravel's Gaspard in the same time. It's nothing to do with Chopin's music and everything to do with professors and adjudicators trying to stay relevant (and employed!)

[liszt-and-the-galops]

I never said Beethoven and Bach are bad composers (it'd be a cyclopean proportions bullshit); I love them from the bottom of my heart, actually; I said what I said, namely that Schumann's genius (with "Genius" here meaning creative flair, deep understanding of "form" and everything that might go by the name of "musical intelligence") is superior to that of the above-mentioned composers. In fact, I 'bashed' only Chopin.

I really hope that you don't know what you're doing here.
I f***ing hate it when people make strawman arguments.

I did not mention importance, also because if you mean “importance” from a historical point of view (i. e. how the musical output of Bach and Beethoven influenced later composers), then it is obvious Schumann is not that important.

You implied it by placing "[Schumann's] genius was even greater than Bach's" right after "Schumann was a god of music."
Most people consider Bach a "god" of music (using the term extremely loosely), so saying that you consider Schumann one as well and immediately stating that his "genius" was "greater" than Bach's implies that you believe that Schumann was greater and more important than Bach.

Well, sorry to disappoint you, nothing Chopin wrote has ever caught my attention or exerted any fascination on me. I consider him the most mediocre of composers, capable only of creating catchy melodies for aristocratic "living-rooms"  and lacking any compositional skill whatsoever.

You seem to have mixed up Chopin and Mereaux, of who Hamelin said was "musically sub-zero."

(I chose a MIDI recording very deliberately. )

He never innovated, never experimented, he was capable of creating not-so-bad melodies but the problem is that was then unable to develop them.

Just because YOU don't like Chopin doesn't mean that Chopin was a terrible writer who could do no better than Mereaux. Chopin essentially revolutionized the Etude; everything that came after (including Schumann's Symphonic Etudes) was just a case of reinventing the wheel.

The truth is that he wrote almost only for piano not because he really wanted to write only for this instrument, but because he was unable to write for an ensemble, let alone for orchestra[.]

Liszt wrote roughly the same amount for orchestra as Chopin did (percentage-wise). Does that make him "unable to write for orchestra?"

[I ]will say more: truthfully, he was not able to write decently (although many claim that he is the most pianistic composer of all) even for piano, since his works contain bits so uncomfortable and absurd that one would think that he worked as a madman with the precise aim of writing in the way that is the most adverse to the natural anatomy and physiology of the hand

Can you give examples?
Also, I guarantee that whatever you find, it will not even approach the insanity of a Mereaux Etude. That was "deliberately going against the anatomy of the human hand."

Glad to see that that other post got removed...
sheesh.

[lelle]

I love a greater quantity of Chopin works than Schumann works. Doesn't mean Schumann is bad, just not for me. Different strokes for different folks.

[advertis45]

To be quite honest, I really do enjoy most of Schumann's works, like I'm currently studying his Humoreske, and it is one of the most exciting and emotional pieces I've ever played, but there are also some of his pieces that I don't particularly like, but it doesn't mean that they're bad, but it's just not what I prefer. I also don't think you should compare Schumann to other composers, because I guess I think he's in his own league and "genius", and should not be compared to other "geniuses". Just try to be more sensitive and open-minded while talking about these kinds of things, because people have their own opinions about different composers and stuff, which is ok, and you should respect that.

[transitional]

To be quite honest, I really do enjoy most of Schumann's works, like I'm currently studying his Humoreske, and it is one of the most exciting and emotional pieces I've ever played,

I'm glad you like it! It's my favorite Schumann piece and I'm happy that you followed through with the suggestion! There are so many cool things in each section, the simple ABA works out with a more human and spontaneous emotional undertone. My favorite section is the Hastig with the 3 staves. It looks like a tricky piece but I look forward to trying it out sometime too! Waldszenen first for me I think. 

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Just try to be more sensitive and open-minded while talking about these kinds of things, because people have their own opinions about different composers and stuff, which is ok, and you should respect that.

Well said.

[1972dd]

Its ok to like Composer X without attempting to justify it by disparaging Composer Y which appears to me what you may be doing