Rachmaninoff or Brahms?

[Pumpkinhead]

All right, I have quite a huge dillema. For my new repetiore, my teacher says that I need a huge Romantic work. I had no idea where to start, so she's given me a few possibilities.   Either the Rachmaninoff Sonata No. 2, Chopins Grand Polonaise Brilliante, or the Brahms Paganini Variations. Quite honestly, I love all three of them, and still can't decide which one to tackle. 

Could you guys possibly tell me(or even rate them) about their difficulty, popularity, etc.?

Thank you so much,
Pumpkinheads

[DavidW]

How interesting!

On the Rachmaninoff -- I love the Second Sonata.  I thought about playing it and the first difficulty was which version.  I have 3 versions.  I have the original -- which some say is just too huge, but when you listen to parts of it and then listen to the revised version -- well, you wished there were some things left in from the original.  Then I did something crazy and created the Horowitz version out of two scores -- a lot of cutting and pasting -- actually I guess I bought 3 scores.  Anyway, the Horowitz version is great.  You can buy the John Browning edition by Kalmus I think and it gives you instructions on creating the Horowitz version.  A little complicated, but worth it if you choose to play that version. 

My professor in college said of the Brahms -- and I think this comment is shared by many other pianists who try to play the paganini variations of Brahms -- once you learn each variation -- it's putting them together as a unit (and obviously playing both books, one after the other, non-stop) -- there is your problem.  It's hard as hell -- physically it's a ball-buster.  I played scarbo, and I think some of those Brahms variations are more difficult.

I don't have any comments on the Chopin --

Good luck -- all great pieces.  Whatever you decide, I know you will enjoy and love working on these beautiful pieces of music. 

[Pumpkinhead]

Thank you so very much, David. That's just what I needed to hear.

Although I still haven't decided, I'm pretty sure I'm taking the Chopin out of consideration. The Rachmaninoff 1931 version sounds the cleanest to me, while the original is just so HUGE. Hmmmm, not quite sure about the Brahms, because I hear that you need so much long-winded maturity, much like his concertos.

Could any one possibly rate these pieces towards difficulty, when compared to other pieces? I just need an  idea of what I'm getting myself into!

[steinwayguy]

Yeah uh, Rachmaninoff 2nd sonata and Paganini Variations are two monstrous pieces. The Paganini Variations are regarded by many to be the most difficult piece ever written (I cannot share the sentiment). I say go for Paganini, and have fun!

[apion]

Yeah uh, Rachmaninoff 2nd sonata and Paganini Variations are two monstrous pieces. The Paganini Variations are regarded by many to be the most difficult piece ever written (I cannot share the sentiment). I say go for Paganini, and have fun!

I agree, go for the Paganini.  However, if you seek an even greater Brahms masterpiece, I recommend his Variations and Fugue on a Theme by Handel.   Simply the greatest thing ever written for solo piano (except, of course, for Bach's Goldberg Variations and Beethoven's Hammerklavier sonata).  Once you master that fugue finale, you'll be dancin' in the streets.   

[pianowelsh]

Theyre all difficult and all popular so learn them all and just decide which one you will do first!

[Musicag]

Another problem with big sets of varioations is the length of greak/lapse between the individaul variations. Not all teachers even know how to teach their students about them.

[DarkWind]

How huge exactly is the original Rachmaninoff Sonata No. 2?

[Skeptopotamus]

the 1913 rach son2 is without a doubt the most difficult there and the most impressive.  go for that.  oh it's about 20 minute long.  the chopin i wouldnt do.  where's the fun?

[jlh]

Have you considered the Liszt Sonata in b-minor?  I'd consider that to be in the same category.

[frederic]

the 1913 rach son2 is without a doubt the most difficult there and the most impressive. go for that. oh it's about 20 minute long. the chopin i wouldnt do. where's the fun?

No fun in Chopin???! you gotta be kiddin me! Do the original coz its most impressive?! So i guess you get your kicks outta playing fast, loud, difficult and "impressive" stuff?! Go play your scales to get some real fun!

Yeah i definitly agree with the Liszt Sonata. Also i would recommend Mendelssohn's Variations Serieuses if you want to consider other sets of variations.  Great work the Mendelssohn!

[Pumpkinhead]

Thanks a ton for the advice, you guys. I've decided on playing the Brahms.

Anyways, I started the piece yesterday, and it is freaking insane. I've never attempted such a difficult piece, but I am thoroughly enjoying the ass-whuppin.  The piece isn't too difficult, or out of my range, but I certainly believe the hype surrounding the piece's difficulty. Thanks for the excellent advice.


Pumpkinheads

[johnnypiano]

Good decision...Each variation is short and interesting.  Enjoy yourself.  Have you a favourite variation?   

[pianoboi666]

definately go for brahms, while I do prefer Rachmaninoff over brahms in general, I'm just not a big fan of the second sonata.  But the paganini variations are an incredible piece, very good luck to ya.

Dan

[CCM Stephen]

I am working on the Brahms Paganini Variations right now, and love it.  It is definitely the hardest thing I've ever played (I've done Tchaik 1, Prok 7, lots of Chopin etudes, etc).  Particularly Variations 2 and 14 from book I.  It's probably considerably harder than the Rachmaninoff but is a superior piece, and will be more fun to work on.  If your teacher recommended it, go for it. 

[pianonut]

glad to hear you made a choice.  i agree with pianowelch that you can learn the other two as well, later.  they all seem to be very difficult, but maybe the brahms is easier to practice slow - and gradually faster.  you have breaks in between the variations, too.

i learned this one on my own - all of book 1.  this took about a half year - and then the rest of the year to speed it faster and faster. your progress will probably be faster than mine, considering #1 no teacher at the time #2 working at my own pace - around household stuff.

the first variation i found it easier to use 5and2 alternating with 4and1 in the rh.  that's probably a given for most - but i can give you more (of my personal fingerings).  in measure 17 and 18 in the l.h. you can use 5,4,2 on the a min. chord and E major chord.  this leaves your 3,1 fingers for the alternating thirds.

i don't know if this is a good fingering, but in measure 19 in the lh i use 3,1 again on the last third a-c , so i can use 5,4,2 on the E major chord in the next measure.

in measure 29 i use 5,4,2 on the A major chord, and then 1,3 - 4,2 - and 3,5 on the last three thirds (b,d- a,c#- g,Bb) after this succession - i literally picked up my hand and replaced in in the new position.  you will find after playing it over and over, it is quite easy.

the next passage (m30) i use 5,4,2 and then 1-2-1 and switch to finger 2 at the top of the next chord.

i love variation 5!!! it is really beautiful.

[Pumpkinhead]

Well, I guess I'm in a whole new situation. For my upcoming competition at the beginning of next year, I'll need another large-scale romantic work. Since I'm already learning the Paganini, my teacher really wants me to play either the Rachmaninoff Sonata, or his Varations on a theme by Corelli.

To be honest, I've never even heard the Variations, but from what I hear, they're amazing. Does anyone have any comments on either? Oh yeah, if anyone has it, could you possibly send me a Pdf of the sonata? Thought I'd give it a whirl.

Thank you guys so much for your helpful comments thus far.

Pumpkinhead

[steinwayguy]

Personally I find the Corelli Variations pretty boring, and I'm not a huge fan of the second sonata either. I think you should consider also-
Schumann's Symphonic Etudes
Schumann's Fantasy in C
Chopin's Andante Spianato and Grand Polonaise Brillante
or one Chopin's 2nd or 3rd sonatas.

But that's just me.

[Pumpkinhead]

Just listened to the Variations for the first time. To be honest, I totally love em. It may not be half as difficult as the other pieces, but Rachmaninoff is so creative in this work.

 Definately Not boring!

[Skeptopotamus]

yeah the variations are pretty, but the sonata is leagues better for competition and stuff.  Why doesnt anyone ever consider the first rachmaninov sonata?  OR the alkan symphonie?  both of those are really cool.

[apion]

I am working on the Brahms Paganini Variations right now, and love it.  It is definitely the hardest thing I've ever played (I've done Tchaik 1, Prok 7, lots of Chopin etudes, etc).  Particularly Variations 2 and 14 from book I.  It's probably considerably harder than the Rachmaninoff but is a superior piece, and will be more fun to work on.  If your teacher recommended it, go for it. 

Brahms to the max.

[Pumpkinhead]

yeah the variations are pretty, but the sonata is leagues better for competition and stuff. Why doesnt anyone ever consider the first rachmaninov sonata? OR the alkan symphonie? both of those are really cool.

Ah man, I like the Variations so much more than the sonata. Would the Sonata really be that much better for competition? btw, the first sonata is much too long.

[steinwayguy]

Ah man, I like the Variations so much more than the sonata. Would the Sonata really be that much better for competition? btw, the first sonata is much too long.

If you're going to play the sonata, you might as well play one of the concerti 

[Pumpkinhead]

Aww crap. Sorry for draggin this thread on so freaking long  . Anyways, I told my teacher that I wanted to play the variations. She said that I couldn't play it because I'm already learning a set of Variations(Paganini), which I found very unprofessional because she's the one that recommended it in the first place!   Now i need to find another "large-scale" Romantic piece.  My mind is totally drawing a blank, so do you guys have any good recommendations? (don't worry if it's overplayed, I need all feedback I can get!)

Thanks so much guys
Pumpkinhead

[musicsdarkangel]

............I love the Rach 2nd sonata

The 2nd movement is beautiful....


Heck, play what you enjoy listening to.

[steinwayguy]

Schumann's Symphonic Etudes, Op. 13
Schumann's Fantasy in C, Op. 17
Schumann's Carnaval, Op. 9
Schumann's Kreisleriana, Op. 16
Chopin's Andante Spianato and Grand Polonaise Brillante, Op. 20
Chopin's 3rd or 4th Scherzi, 4th Ballade
Liszt Sonata   
Liszt's Rhapsodie Espagnole
Mendelssohn's Fantasy in F-sharp Minor, Op. 28

More later, in all likelihood   

[rohansahai]

Mussourgsky- Pictures at an Exhibition
Schumann- Carnaval op. 9, Fantasia in C
Chopin- Polonaise Fantasie,
Liszt- Mephisto waltz no. 3 (1 is too common, never heard the 2nd)
Tchaikovsky- Theme and variations in F
AND  a very good and different idea would be to go for one of anton rubinstein's works

[apion]

Mussourgsky- Pictures at an Exhibition
Schumann- Carnaval op. 9, Fantasia in C
Chopin- Polonaise Fantasie,
Liszt- Mephisto waltz no. 3 (1 is too common, never heard the 2nd)

I like the first 4 suggestions (notice that I nuked the Tchaikovski -- why inject such medocrity into the equation -- Tchaikovsky can stick to his ballets, and leave the piano to real professionals).      

[Pumpkinhead]

Hmmm, how about Mendelssohn Variations Serieuses?  Is it difficult enough, musically and technically?

[Skeptopotamus]

aww nobody ever does the Alkan Symphonie pour piano.




it sure is tough enough.

[donjuan]

aww nobody ever does the Alkan Symphonie pour piano.




it sure is tough enough.

fun to listen to... nauseating to read and play.

[rohansahai]

I like the first 4 suggestions (notice that I nuked the Tchaikovski -- why inject such medocrity into the equation -- Tchaikovsky can stick to his ballets, and leave the piano to real professionals)

One question: Have you heard the piece i mentioned??
Personally I am very fond of Tchaikovsky...I would also recommend the Pletnev Transcription of the Nutcracker!

[pianowelsh]

go rohansahai - i love these transcriptions too. What a choice though - these are all fantastic pieces. I would suggest you trial learn a few of them and make a decision once youve part learned them  - this will help you later in your rep.

[Pumpkinhead]

I'm really starting to consider the Mendelssohn Variations Serieuses.  I hear it's very challenging musically, but how hard is it technically?

[presto agitato]

I'm really starting to consider the Mendelssohn Variations Serieuses.  I hear it's very challenging musically, but how hard is it technically?

Some say they are as hard as Paganini Varations, however Mendelssohn´s sonata in B flat Op 106 is more difficult  than his varations serieuses.

[steinwayguy]

Some say they are as hard as Paganini Varations, however Mendelssohn´s sonata in B flat Op 106 is more difficult than his varations serieuses.

I don't think they're as hard as Paganini.

And what about Beethoven's sonata in B-flat Opus 106?? 

[fergal]

yeah the variations are pretty, but the sonata is leagues better for competition and stuff.  Why doesnt anyone ever consider the first rachmaninov sonata?  OR the alkan symphonie?  both of those are really cool.

 I'm with you Skepto.  I played the second sonata at college a couple of years ago, and played the First Sonata just three days ago for a big recital exam I had.  They're both brilliant works but for me the First is definately superior.  People often complain about its size, and it is big; best part of forty minutes in fact!  But it doesn't go on  any longer than it needs to.  Its an epic journey and it requires time in order for the music to unfold organically. Its darn difficult too!  Took me about 6 months to get up and running from memory, but well worth it.  Bit of advice: when playing this work try to put it at the end of a programme as it is pretty exhausting, and difficult to focus afterwards!