Chopin 10/12 Left hand

[boldglamourfilter]

Not sure how to tackle measures 7-9 of the etude for the left hand. They come out really uneven or detach from the right hand. I've tried using fingerings 12341234 and 12342345, might use the latter, as it allows each grouping to sound clearer. I've noticed whenever I play fingers 3 and 4 my left pinky tends to shoot up from my hand.

For practicing the excerpt, I've tried switching hands (right hand playing left, left hand right) as I thought it might help with coordination of both hands, but that didn't seem to work. For the eveness, I've just tried slow practice and tried different rhythms (eighth note, three sixteenths) but that doesn't seem to work.

Thoughts?

[brogers70]

I also remember that it was a struggle to sync up the hands in those measures. One thing that helped was practicing each group of notes (by which I mean a group that you play in one hand position) many times in one hand until it felt easy. Then practicing the shift in hand position by playing one group+the first note of the next group, until the hand shift felt comfortable, then linking two complete groups with the first note of the third, etc. Did that first hands separate and then together. It took a long time for those bars to feel comfortable for me, but they came eventually.

[jamienc]

Here’s a slight hint… don’t play any of the notes in the LH legato.

[boldglamourfilter]

Here’s a slight hint… don’t play any of the notes in the LH legato.

Yeah, I figured. It would also start to sound very muddy at that register. Would you recommend purely finger exercises (hanon, etc), or something that involves more arm movement to compensate for the weak fingers?

Thanks.

[boldglamourfilter]

I also remember that it was a struggle to sync up the hands in those measures. One thing that helped was practicing each group of notes (by which I mean a group that you play in one hand position) many times in one hand until it felt easy. Then practicing the shift in hand position by playing one group+the first note of the next group, until the hand shift felt comfortable, then linking two complete groups with the first note of the third, etc. Did that first hands separate and then together. It took a long time for those bars to feel comfortable for me, but they came eventually.

Thanks for the response, I think I've tried that before but I think the biggest issue now is my left hand being too sluggish/clunky to align with the right hand.

[jamienc]

Yeah, I figured. It would also start to sound very muddy at that register. Would you recommend purely finger exercises (hanon, etc), or something that involves more arm movement to compensate for the weak fingers?

Thanks.

Chopin (and other composers for piano no doubt) knew very well that the fingers would never be equal in strength no matter what you try to do to make it so. Finger exercises are good to focus on technical application without having to worry so much about making “music,” but honestly there are enough opportunities to work on the technical aspects within the repertoire itself. For me, didactic exercises like Hanon and others just took away from learning actual pieces. I’m sure others will disagree, but that’s just my opinion. Here are a couple of things to consider about the LH of 10/12…

First, it is easy to fall into the trap of treating the LH as if it is the main event. Much like other works of Chopin, it is still the accompaniment despite how frequent the notes are compared to the RH, and it should be treated as such. It certainly contributes to the character of the music, but it should remain subservient in both dynamics and articulation to the melody above. The register of the piano doesn’t help, because that tends to “boom” much more. Thankfully, Chopin wrote the RH with lots of chords and octaves to counterbalance this problem. Here’s how I treat the LH of this etude after having played it and the rest of the set for about 25 years now…

The main technical hurdle of the LH arpeggios after the introduction is the awkward shape of the figure created by that annoying D that connects the C and E-flat. I have tried all kinds of fingering combinations to try and rid myself of the awkwardness, but there really is no option other than to use 4 on the first D and then 3-2 at the top turnaround. I suspect that your struggle with the evenness and coordination with the RH is primarily due to the fact that you are holding onto the shape of the notes within each segment of the arpeggio and getting “stuck” there. This is going to make the freedom to shift effectively across the two octaves much more difficult.

Your forearm should glide smoothly through the passage and your wrist should remain as loose and motionless as possible. In essence, your arm and wrist should bring each finger to the key and then each finger should “let go” once the key is activated. What this means is that rather than stretching your hand position out to accommodate the shape of the awkward position, your hand position should remain relatively natural and allow the arm movement to take the brunt of the “work” necessary to get the finger into place. If you find your arm and wrist making excess motion to accommodate the shifts and travel, you’re working against your own efficiency. Practice this idea like this:

Slowly start the arpeggio upwards but do not stretch your hand position out fully to encompass the first octave. When one note is played, let it go, move your arm to get the next finger into position, and then activate that finger. Let go, and so on. This is especially important when the shifts occur to get to each D going up. Let go of that thumb and let the arm bring 4 over. If you concentrate on NOT holding notes within the position and getting stuck, you’ll start to feel the gesture as a natural and smooth trajectory upwards that just happens to bring the finger into place. So instead of using strength to get those notes out, you are using extremely efficient coordination of the arm and finger to keep things even.

Here’s the most important point to always remember: The smoothness of your shifts between positions is going to succeed because all of the other notes within a hand position are going to be detached to the same level as that which occurs at the shift itself. If notes within the position are all connected and “stuck” then it’s no wonder that bumps and unevenness occurs at a position shift! Make everything the same articulation slowly, then increase your speed when your conscious application of the technical skill becomes solid. I think you’ll find the result to be quite close to what you are trying to achieve with the piece.

Hope this helps!


 

[boldglamourfilter]

Chopin (and other composers for piano no doubt) knew very well that the fingers would never be equal in strength no matter what you try to do to make it so. Finger exercises are good to focus on technical application without having to worry so much about making “music,” but honestly there are enough opportunities to work on the technical aspects within the repertoire itself. For me, didactic exercises like Hanon and others just took away from learning actual pieces. I’m sure others will disagree, but that’s just my opinion. Here are a couple of things to consider about the LH of 10/12…

First, it is easy to fall into the trap of treating the LH as if it is the main event. Much like other works of Chopin, it is still the accompaniment despite how frequent the notes are compared to the RH, and it should be treated as such. It certainly contributes to the character of the music, but it should remain subservient in both dynamics and articulation to the melody above. The register of the piano doesn’t help, because that tends to “boom” much more. Thankfully, Chopin wrote the RH with lots of chords and octaves to counterbalance this problem. Here’s how I treat the LH of this etude after having played it and the rest of the set for about 25 years now…

The main technical hurdle of the LH arpeggios after the introduction is the awkward shape of the figure created by that annoying D that connects the C and E-flat. I have tried all kinds of fingering combinations to try and rid myself of the awkwardness, but there really is no option other than to use 4 on the first D and then 3-2 at the top turnaround. I suspect that your struggle with the evenness and coordination with the RH is primarily due to the fact that you are holding onto the shape of the notes within each segment of the arpeggio and getting “stuck” there. This is going to make the freedom to shift effectively across the two octaves much more difficult.

Your forearm should glide smoothly through the passage and your wrist should remain as loose and motionless as possible. In essence, your arm and wrist should bring each finger to the key and then each finger should “let go” once the key is activated. What this means is that rather than stretching your hand position out to accommodate the shape of the awkward position, your hand position should remain relatively natural and allow the arm movement to take the brunt of the “work” necessary to get the finger into place. If you find your arm and wrist making excess motion to accommodate the shifts and travel, you’re working against your own efficiency. Practice this idea like this:

Slowly start the arpeggio upwards but do not stretch your hand position out fully to encompass the first octave. When one note is played, let it go, move your arm to get the next finger into position, and then activate that finger. Let go, and so on. This is especially important when the shifts occur to get to each D going up. Let go of that thumb and let the arm bring 4 over. If you concentrate on NOT holding notes within the position and getting stuck, you’ll start to feel the gesture as a natural and smooth trajectory upwards that just happens to bring the finger into place. So instead of using strength to get those notes out, you are using extremely efficient coordination of the arm and finger to keep things even.

Here’s the most important point to always remember: The smoothness of your shifts between positions is going to succeed because all of the other notes within a hand position are going to be detached to the same level as that which occurs at the shift itself. If notes within the position are all connected and “stuck” then it’s no wonder that bumps and unevenness occurs at a position shift! Make everything the same articulation slowly, then increase your speed when your conscious application of the technical skill becomes solid. I think you’ll find the result to be quite close to what you are trying to achieve with the piece.

Hope this helps!

Thanks for such an incredibly written explanation of the piece and how to do handle the technical aspect. I will let you know how things go for the arpeggiated section.

As for the finger isolation and technique, I harbor the same opinions as you against Hanon, still doing them out of habit and as a quick warm up    However, the particular measures mentioned with the parallel sixteenth runs I find cannot be worked around with anything but finger independence. My left hand is just too clunky to manage doing those with enough facility. Any suggestions for that? While I am aware that I cannot make a finger "strong", I don't know any method to handle that section besides pure finger independence.

Thanks!

[jamienc]

Apologies! I wasn’t looking at the score and had my mind so fixated on the LH arpeggios that I didn’t realize you were talking about the two bars before that begins.

I’m not sure which edition you are using but in my edition there are slurs over the sixteenth notes that begin with each note after the upwards leap. For example, the first two notes of bar 7 are the last two notes from the previous descent to that point from way up above. After that, I believe you said you were using LH1234 and RH4321 for each group. That’s correct! The image shows the slur groups I’m referring to…

I always interpreted those passages to have a slight “lift” after each low note, starting the new passage after the leap as a new segment. In other words, I don’t connect the low to the high during the leap. Each one of the red boxes in the pic is what I consider a group, and I lift just a bit after each box is completed totally. My hunch is that you may be trying to connect those too faithfully, which causes two problematic scenarios. First, you may be unknowingly anticipating the leap so much that you are rushing the last couple of notes on the descent and maybe even failing to “finish” that group before you move to the next. If you don’t complete the group evenly to the bottom, that may cause unevenness and dislocated finger action with regards to the rhythm.

Secondly, by trying to connect, you may be stretching your hand position out more than necessary to reach the leap. Stretching your hand shape out and back again in such a quick period of time could disrupt the ability of the fingers to manage the end of the descent, the transitional leap, and then the start of the new group from up high. As I mentioned in the post above, let go of that last note at the bottom of each group and try to maintain as natural a hand position as possible when you move. Try not to “reach” for the top note while the lower fingers are still engaged with the bottom of the previous group.

In essence, try to do the following:

• finish each group to the bottom
• lift and reset to the top of the next group (a little space between groups is fine!)
• keep your hand position stable throughout each group and shift (no excessive stretching or reaching)

All of the other things I mentioned in the my first post apply here as well!
Again, I hope this helps!

[boldglamourfilter]

Apologies! I wasn’t looking at the score and had my mind so fixated on the LH arpeggios that I didn’t realize you were talking about the two bars before that begins.

I’m not sure which edition you are using but in my edition there are slurs over the sixteenth notes that begin with each note after the upwards leap. For example, the first two notes of bar 7 are the last two notes from the previous descent to that point from way up above. After that, I believe you said you were using LH1234 and RH4321 for each group. That’s correct! The image shows the slur groups I’m referring to…

I always interpreted those passages to have a slight “lift” after each low note, starting the new passage after the leap as a new segment. In other words, I don’t connect the low to the high during the leap. Each one of the red boxes in the pic is what I consider a group, and I lift just a bit after each box is completed totally. My hunch is that you may be trying to connect those too faithfully, which causes two problematic scenarios. First, you may be unknowingly anticipating the leap so much that you are rushing the last couple of notes on the descent and maybe even failing to “finish” that group before you move to the next. If you don’t complete the group evenly to the bottom, that may cause unevenness and dislocated finger action with regards to the rhythm.

Secondly, by trying to connect, you may be stretching your hand position out more than necessary to reach the leap. Stretching your hand shape out and back again in such a quick period of time could disrupt the ability of the fingers to manage the end of the descent, the transitional leap, and then the start of the new group from up high. As I mentioned in the post above, let go of that last note at the bottom of each group and try to maintain as natural a hand position as possible when you move. Try not to “reach” for the top note while the lower fingers are still engaged with the bottom of the previous group.

In essence, try to do the following:

• finish each group to the bottom
• lift and reset to the top of the next group (a little space between groups is fine!)
• keep your hand position stable throughout each group and shift (no excessive stretching or reaching)

All of the other things I mentioned in the my first post apply here as well!
Again, I hope this helps!

Again, thank you tremendously for such a well-worded response.
Unfortunately, I have tried using those methods of grouping and lifting, to no avail. I will have the rushing aspect in mind, when practicing, however.

It seems to me that the issue I have is a purely mechanical one; My right hand seems perfectly fine playing the motion, but as mentioned, my left hand cannot keep up. I will ask my teacher about it tomorrow. That is why I mentioned Hanon earlier; that excerpt seems to be a purely finger-based one, correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks so much!

[morrisjd]

I mentioned this practice technique before for improving the smoothness and speed of long connected streams of notes of the same duration (usually 8th notes and above.)  This works for music that is structured around scales and arpeggios.  Group the notes in sequences of four (assuming the meter is 4/4.  Grouping can be different for other meters)  Then alter the note duration of each sequence as follows.  (Assuming the sequence is 4 evenly played 8th notes in a long stream of notes):
A) 8th  16th  8th  16th.
B) 16th  8th  16th  8th.
C) 8th  16th 16th  8th.
D) 8th  16th 16th 16th (as triplets)
E) 16th 16th 16th (as triplets) 8th

Practice the piece using the A) sequence.  Then practice again with B) and so on through to E).

For the Revolutionary Etude, this technique makes it sound like a Duke Ellington interpretation, but the idea is that the alternating change (double tempo) at different places in the sequence teaches the fingers to play the sequence faster and smoother when played normally.

Also, once you have the piece playable up to speed, continue to practice it at half speed much of the time.  Play it slow and listen for any finger sloppiness that might be creeping in due to the finger muscles taking shortcuts.  (Your muscles already know how to play it up to tempo or even faster.)  I suggest during practice that you purposely play it slow 2 times for every one time you practice it at tempo.  And in some cases, you might want to practice the so called full tempo speed just a little bit slower than full tempo.  This is playing in reserve, which seems to help maintain overall integrity of your playing.  Then maybe every 10th time, you play it like you would during a performance. 

[il1872]

You could try practicing like this (see attachment)

Essentially play 4 16th notes + 1

Then repeat the last note and continue for the next group.

When you can do this well, do 8 + 1 16th notes, and so on.

The repetition of the final note is very important, and always practice such passages with very firm tone.

Good luck!

[lelle]

Did your teacher give you any helpful pointers? I remember this passage troubled me for a long time before I overcame it, having the same issue as you - my left hand not being able to keep up with my right.