The top ten hardest piano pieces + Is there anything harder than La Campanella?

[frodo5]

Off doing something more interesting than trying to come up with a system to rank the difficulty of very difficult piano pieces.

   Lol.   But keep in mind - there is A LOT OF INTENSE INTEREST by some here to rank pieces by difficulty.  Not just the OP.  I guess these discussions are just for fun?  Not sure.  For me, it's fun to try to find an objective way to measure difficulty.  I guess finding an objective way is not fun for most.  But it is appropriate to discuss and consider here IMO. 

Without an objective way to measure, we are just giving opinions.
La Capanella is the hardest piece ever written.
No it's not.
Yes it is.  It is on many top 10 lists as the hardest piano piece.
You're crazy.
          

[frodo5]

I'm saying that it's possible for someone to learn Le Preux in less time than that same person did for La Campanella. In fact, it's very likely that the average person who progresses that far will have done so.

There are so many problems with this...
Just for starters, not everyone learns something at the same speed; the same person can learn two different things at completely different speeds (the classic example is Algebra vs. Geometry, but I digress). The speed at which someone learns something simply has too many confounding variables for it to be a decent measure of difficulty, not to mention that it's practically impossible to pull off in real life.

If my mental math is correct -- I am a bit rusty on my statistics, so I'm probably a bit off --, then you'd need a bare minimum of 50 to have any decent shot at a statistically significant result, and at least 250 for <50% odds of a type II error.There's only one who has the patience to respond to you...
And his patience is getting lower.

Why don't we bring this discussion to an end then?

[liszt-and-the-galops]

  Lol.   But keep in mind - there is A LOT OF INTENSE INTEREST by some here to rank pieces by difficulty.  Not just the OP.  I guess these discussions are just for fun?  Not sure.  For me, it's fun to try to find an objective way to measure difficulty.  I guess finding an objective way is not fun for most.  But it is appropriate to discuss and consider here IMO. 

There simply is no "objective" way to rank the difficulty of piano pieces, especially atonal ones.

Why don't we bring this discussion to an end then?

Absolutely.

Also, damn. Two pages on a troll thread?

[frodo5]

1) There simply is no "objective" way to rank the difficulty of piano pieces, especially atonal ones.

2) Absolutely.

1) If you say so it must be true.

2) We are in agreement then.  Maybe we can have a more civilized discussion about something else in the future.

[beebebleuga]

Isn't everything difficult to play well...
to get a good sound especially for Mozart and Bach
to nail very technically difficult etudes
and to play in front of an audience

but what is well and difficult are subjective

[liszt-and-the-galops]

1) If you say so it must be true.

Uh, no?

[essence]

Everybody has a different body and skills. - That's why we test at least 20 pianists as in my prior post.

Where are the scientifically minded people here?!?!

It depends on the question. You can rank piece difficulty for an average pianist, or you can rank it for an individual.

It is similar to the prosecutor's fallacy.

I am a scientist and statistician.

[frodo6]

It depends on the question. You can rank piece difficulty for an average pianist, or you can rank it for an individual.

It is similar to the prosecutor's fallacy.

I am a scientist and statistician.

Excellent!  I am a retired actuary of 30 years.  I am talking about coming up with an objective way to rank the difficulty of a select list of extremely difficult piano pieces as judged by the average world class pianist.  World class pianist being defined as among the top 100 of current, active performing pianists.  Let's assume we can agree on a way to pick the top 100 pianists.

Let's say the select list is:
1) Beethoven Hammerklavier sonata
2) Brahms Piano concerto #2
3) Liszt La Campanella

We could simply poll the 100 pianists to rank these 3 pieces and use the results to determine which of these 3 is the most difficult.  But we would have to DEFINE what “most difficult” is so the pianist can cast a meaningful vote.  See NOTE at the bottom of this post.

Here are two questions for you and others:

1) How would you suggest defining “most difficult”?   Here is a possible suggestion:

"Most difficult" means the most amount of preparation time is required in order to have a high probability of a successful performance.  "Preparation time" includes past time spent learning the piece. “Successful performance” means the piece was performed at world class level of accuracy, musicality and performance tempo.  We could then define "world class accuracy", "world class musicality" and "world class performance tempo" .

2) Do you have any other suggestions for an OBJECTIVE method to determine which piano piece from a select list of pieces is the most difficult as judged by the AVERAGE world class pianist? 

NOTE: I personally feel that polling the pianists is NOT an objective way to determine difficulty.  This is why I (frodo5=frodo6) proposed my method described earlier in this thread. Please comment on this if you like.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

frodo6

lmao

Excellent!  I am a retired actuary of 30 years.  I am talking about coming up with an objective way to rank the difficulty of a select list of extremely difficult piano pieces as judged by the average world class pianist.  World class pianist being defined as among the top 100 of current, active performing pianists.  Let's assume we can agree on a way to pick the top 100 pianists.

Let's say the select list is:
1) Beethoven Hammerklavier sonata
2) Brahms Piano concerto #2
3) Liszt La Campanella

We could simply poll the 100 pianists to rank these 3 pieces and use the results to determine which of these 3 is the most difficult.  But we would have to DEFINE what “most difficult” is so the pianist can cast a meaningful vote.  See NOTE at the bottom of this post.

Here are two questions for you and others:

1) How would you suggest defining “most difficult”?   Here is a possible suggestion:
"Most difficult" means the most amount of preparation time (including past time spent on the piece) is required in order to have a high probability of a successful performance.  “Successful performance” means the piece was performed at world class level of accuracy, musicality and performance tempo.  We could then define "world class accuracy", "world class musicality" and "world class performance tempo" .

2) Do you have any other suggestions on a way to come up with an OBJECTIVE way to determine which piano piece from a select list of pieces is the most difficult as judged by the AVERAGE world class pianist?

Will you ever get tired of attempting to objectively rank things that are completely impossible to objectively rank? I thought we were done with this conversation...

NOTE: I personally feel that poling the pianists is NOT a truly objective way to determine difficulty.  This is why I proposed my method described earlier in this thread. Please comment on this if you like.

Ironically, polling a group of people is the most objective way I can think of for ranking piano pieces by difficulty. I hope I don't need to elaborate on this.

[frodo6]

lmaoWill you ever get tired of attempting to objectively rank things that are completely impossible to objectively rank? I thought we were done with this conversation...Ironically, polling a group of people is the most objective way I can think of for ranking piano pieces by difficulty. I hope I don't need to elaborate on this.

I am excluding you from my conversations on this subject - AS WE PREVIOUSLY AGREED.  You may of course converse with others.  You will not get a reply from me on this matter - other than this one time exception.  Good luck to you.

[frodo6]

I understand that most if not all may not be interested in coming up an objective way to measure difficulty.  My posts on this subject are intended only for those that are interested.  No response is sufficient to show lack of interest.

Since this thread is about ranking the difficulty of pieces and MANY here are passionate about these rankings, I feel it is important to at least define what difficulty is.  Without a standard definition, how can we converse on this subject?

How would you suggest defining “most difficult”?

Oxford language: "Difficult - Needing much effort or skill to accomplish"

If we are looking only at world class pianists then skill is taken care of and this only leaves effort.  What is effort?  Effort - a vigorous or determined attempt.  Does effort include time spent to accomplish (prep time)?

Anyway, I apologize to all those that find this kind of conversation to be boring.  But this is what I get after being an actuary for 30 years.  Everything is math, logic, definitions.  But I also have a sense of humor.   

[frodo6]

It depends on the question. You can rank piece difficulty for an average pianist, or you can rank it for an individual.

It is similar to the prosecutor's fallacy.

I am a scientist and statistician.

I made the previous comment to you:"Where are the scientifically minded people here?!?!"  My apologies to essence!

This was in response to your "It's a funny thing, hardness. Very subjective. Everybody has a different body and skills. Musical? Physical?"

I agree - difficulty is subjective for an individual.  But I was referring to an average of a large group of world class pianists. 

Again, my apologies.

[thorn]

How would you suggest defining “most difficult”?

Oxford language: "Difficult - Needing much effort or skill to accomplish"

I've always found this question more interesting than anything else discussed here. And I actually think you could approach this in an objective way, and if I were doing this as a research project (I'm not a scientist but I am a PhD student- history not music, mind!) it would go like this:

1. Gather as many difficulty poll threads, top 10 lists, youtube videos on the subject and so on as I could possibly find.
2. Narrow down the sample by cutting out a) pieces that don't feature on say 50% or more of threads/lists, and b) complete sets (eg. La Campanella is allowed but not Paganini Etudes as a set).
3. Interview pianists who *actually play* each piece in question (ie. have played it to a critical audience- doesn't have to be a public one, could be an end of year conservatory exam or even an audition) about what the technical difficulties are. This IS NOT to ask them about relative difficulty "are the difficulties of piece X greater/lesser than the difficulties of piece Y", but to ask "what are the technical difficulties of THIS piece".
4. Record all the data onto a spreadsheet so beside each piece, you have the aspects that make it technically difficult (and sections/page or bar number etc).
5. Create a frequency list for technical difficulties- eg. 80% of the sample pieces have leaps, 50% of them have double notes. -> This gives you as close as you can get to an objective definition of pianistic difficulty, together with what elements are more/less likely to influence how the masses rate a piece on difficulty polls. 

This would be your springboard into research about relative difficulty of individual pieces.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

2. Narrow down the sample by cutting out a) pieces that don't feature on say 50% or more of threads/lists, and b) complete sets (eg. La Campanella is allowed but not Paganini Etudes as a set).

I would actually do the opposite for b: only include the complete sets.
Also, cutting out pieces that don't feature on most lists/threads mean that you're cutting out lesser known pieces (e.g Petrushka, lesser-known Liszt pieces e.g S. 140, 137, 464, 253, all of Alkan and Mereaux, Iberia, etc.), which are far more likely to be viable answers. For example, I would consider only a few pieces (that I am aware of) to be contenders for "most difficult piece" (those being Sorabji's Opus Archimagicum, Xenakis' Synaphai, and Xenakis Evryali), and none of them would show up if you're just surveying posts and lists.

I also think that memorization challenges should be included. e.g Petrushka is more difficult to memorize than Le Preux due to Petrushka being A. longer and B. polytonal.

[essence]

yes, I am a scientist!

Of the three quoted, I play hammeklavier privayely and badly. but I have a feeling that with enough work i could play it in public. brahms 3, I have played the score since i was about 14. Much of it i can handle. But those double 4ths ? semiquavers in the first movement? No, I can;t do that at the right speed, never will be able. Graceful last movememt would be a struggle too.

La Campanella? to be honest I would never be bothered to spend enough time training my little fingers. It isn;t great music on the level of the other two..

i am absolurtely sure that there are many pianists who can do a tolerable la campanella, who would also do a dreadul slow movement of Hammerklavier.

Listening to a performance of mahler 6th as I write this.

[symphonicdance]

Not sure if the actual playing will be super difficult, but many modern works were written in a way that the scores & details look weird and complicated enough, already having headache by reading them.

[cuberdrift]

I made the previous comment to you:"Where are the scientifically minded people here?!?!"  My apologies to essence!

This was in response to your "It's a funny thing, hardness. Very subjective. Everybody has a different body and skills. Musical? Physical?"

I agree - difficulty is subjective for an individual.  But I was referring to an average of a large group of world class pianists. 

Again, my apologies.

Caleb Hu makes definitive versions of these types of difficulty lists and you can look up his channel on Youtube. Lots of other stuff like hardest pieces per composer, hardest concerti, etc.

Anyways, the hardest piano piece from the romantic period, as far as I know, is the Liszt transcription of the Beethoven 9th Symphony while the hardest relatively known piece ever composed is Sorabji's Opus Archimagum.

[thalbergmad]

Oh gawd, not this again.
Thal