bach wtc fingerings

[dongsang153]

does anybody know of a site that provides all fingering for the wtc book 1 and 2?  thanks a lot!

[fred smalls]

ummm not really, but there is the www.sheetmusicarchive.net which provides a pdf of all of them (you can only download two a day though).

[SteinwayTony]

Buy the Vienna Urtext edition.  I agree with 95% of the fingering.

[jim_24601]

ummm not really, but there is the www.sheetmusicarchive.net which provides a pdf of all of them (you can only download two a day though).

I don't recommend the files on sheetmusicarchive for fingerings. I have a few Bach PDFs from there and I've had to pretty much obliterate their fingerings entirely and make up new ones. (Same goes for dynamics and phrasings - obviously they worked for somebody but not for me). The only "proper" edition of the WTC I'm familiar with is the ABRSM Urtext edition; the fingerings in that are good. By "good" I mean what Tony said, probably about 95% are good for me. (I wouldn't bet you any money it'd be the same 95%, though). I shouldn't take any fingerings as gospel though, since everybody's hands are different.

[SteinwayTony]

It's just a matter of personal opinion.  I'm still looking for an edition (of any work by any composer) where I agree with all of the fingering markings.  All of my books are scattered with crossed-out editorial markings and replaced with ones my teacher and I agreed upon.  And I guess I should be coming up with my own.  But if the musician-scholars at Vienna Urtext put the time and energy into it, they deserve some respect for that.

[jim_24601]

It wasn't my intent to diss anybody, let alone any Urtext editors. I know enough about how much work goes into preparing one of those editions to know that I've really got no idea how much work goes into preparing one of those editions, if you see what I mean. My point was that fingerings are a personal thing, and all the skill and scholarship in the world won't change that. Referring again to the ABRSM edition, it says up front in the introduction

It should be emphasized that this fingering has no special authority, and more advanced players should feel free to substitute their own.

I suspect that if you wanted an edition where you agreed with all the fingerings, you would have to edit the work in question yourself.

[xvimbi]

Good fingerings in Bach are very difficult to come up with. They must of course fit the individual's hands, which is a personal matter, but there is more to it. The fingering also has to be specially "crafted" in order to bring out the different voices in the more complicated pieces. This requires a thorough understanding of the piece in question in the first place. It can be a lot of fun, but it can also be a nightmare

[SteinwayTony]

Not to mention in the four- and five-voice fugues, you not only need to figure out which plays which note, but also which hand.  Headache.

[pianonut]

also, you don't want a heavy accent at the end of a phrase - so in the fuga V (measure 3) my older french prof put in 2nd finger of rh on the c#.  the preceeding f# is 4, e - 3, and d - 1 (which leads to cross over of 2nd finger to the c#).

it is also that way in the beginning, with the lh.  some people try to extend their fingering (reaching way up and down - and don't settle for thinking about finger strengths).  in the first measure when the notes start going down on b - he wrote 1 - 1- 2-3 (next measure) 4 (on f#).  using the same idea of fingering for this four note phrase, he started the next one by lifting off and placing the thumb again on g.  (g-1, f#-2, e-3, d-4) and again (e-1 and a-5 - then 1-3-2-1 on the crossover up to a).

hope this adds to the ideas of 'why a fingering is used?' finger substitution often happens in bach as well.  you hold a certain note down and change fingers while it is held to reach another note.  without this little trick, it would be hard to reach some of the notes.

also, some repeated notes (such as measure 20) need fingering (ie. from 5 to 4 to 3 on the d) which sets you up for a trill after using the 4th finger on e.  the trill would be d-c-d-c-d-c with 323232)

and, as a ps, you don't always follow scale patterns for fingering in bach.  actually, he's quite eccentric about his fingerings.  you can see, as an example, the third measure in from the end (g-f#-e-d- cnatural-b- a-g-f#-e-d would be 2-3-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4-5) is not  played as a D scale pattern. much better this way.

[jim_24601]

actually, he's quite eccentric about his fingerings.

I'll go with that. I'll not bat an eyelid at using fingerings for Bach I wouldn't dream of trying on a classical composer.

Have we put dongsang off playing Bach yet? Because we're starting to scare me ... 

[e60m5]

Not to mention in the four- and five-voice fugues, you not only need to figure out which plays which note, but also which hand.  Headache.

Not only in the four and five voice fugues, heh.