Need advice on teaching an overly confident beginner student

[figaro]

Recently I took on a new piano student.  Their previous teacher had informed me of how impressive this student is, how quickly they learn - and have started playing Hanon exercises as well as starting on Mozart's Rondo alla Turca, in the original arrangement.  When hearing all of this I thought - wow this student is 11 years old, they might eventually need a more advanced level teacher.   When I finally met with the student I asked them to play the most recent exercises and pieces from his previous teacher.  He is learning from the Faber Piano Adventure Level 3B book and played the last lesson very fast - I learned he had been practicing that lesson piece for one month and each week it was to increase the tempo.  When he played his Hanon exercise, again it was played fast and mechanically.  Again, I learned he spends a month on each exercise and the goal each week is to increase the speed.  In the one year he had started on Hanon, this student reached Exercise 11 this month.  I also discovered that the previous teacher skipped around in the method books.

After about 3 lessons with him, I asked him what are his goals in learning piano.  He said he didn't know.  I then asked if he liked learning piano, and it was a yes.  When I asked what he thought about learning Hanon, he grinned and said it gave him a sense of accomplishment.  Hearing this, I thought great, he's interested in learning skills.  But when I then learned he hadn't played any music aside from the Faber books and now Hanon, I decided it would be good to introduce some short pieces for him to apply his skills.

That's when things became extremely difficult with this student.  He has been resisting in learning the order of the key signatures - because he was taught a nemonic method of finding sharps and flats he didn't see a reason to understand that G major starts 5 notes from C major, but once he discovers this pattern then he dismissed the entire concept of the Circle of 5ths.  He protested at having to play C major (because he already knows it) but later discovered he had difficulty playing it in contrary motion or finding the block chords.  And he doesn't see a reason to practice scales if he knows how to find them with the nemonic method his previous teacher taught - it doesn't matter to him that he didn't remember the pattern of major scales (WWHWWWH) - which is covered in the Faber books but he obviously didn't practice continuously to put into memory. 

But his biggest complaint about me is that he accuses me of holding him back.  And I can see he doesn't think I know how to teach because he believes he already knows everything.  When I ask him a question, and he thinks he knows the answer, he would respond in a condescending tone of voice, even when he is wrong.  I'm very patient but I'm not going to tolerate rudeness and disrespect. 

He is acting this way in part because I informed him and his parents that the Mozart piece is too advanced for him to learn at this time.  Due to his interest in playing fast, his hand was hurting from the 2 months of learning the introduction - and which was only possible by writing in the name of the notes on the page and removing some notes.  I also recognized that he figured out the pattern in the Hanon exercises and wants to finish the entire book as his accomplishment.  Meanwhile, he might be at a late beginner level, he hasn't put into practice the lessons from the method books he had completed towards an original piece of music.  I gave him a short Minuet by JCF Bach, which is at his level and he is letting me know he doesn't care about the piece by how he plays.  This student resents learning music and just wants to play from the Hanon book,  When I explained to him that this short piece of music also contains technique to learn, he got a bit interested and finally put some effort in learning the piece.  But when lessons ended I can see he was still not happy with me.

I have met a number of students who have some type of goal for learning the piano.  Some want to be able to write their own songs, form a band with their friends, play music that their parent learned to play, or if they're adult learners, finally fulling a dream to play the piano.  While each of these students have their different challenges, overall they all have a motivation to keep them learning and practicing - and the motivation doesn't involve learning from only one book of finger exercises. 

[lostinidlewonder]

Your situation is not easy to give advice for as we don't really know many specifics or exactly how the lesson is going on, if you had a video of the lesson that we could analyze maybe there would be more to share.

Since you're a teacher have you considered querying chatgpt? It may give you some broad ideas for your broad problem here. Here is an example of its response, I tend to like 1,3,5 + 6:

CHATGPT:
It sounds like you've encountered a challenging but talented student who may have been guided too narrowly in their previous instruction. The emphasis on speed and mechanical repetition, particularly in Hanon and method books, seems to have shaped the student's idea of success as being solely about technical accomplishment, without developing a deeper understanding of music or broader musicianship.

This student's behavior could be stemming from the fact that he's been conditioned to view piano as a set of technical hurdles, and anything outside that scope might feel unfamiliar or unnecessary to him. His resistance to scales, key signatures, and pieces beyond Hanon could reflect a discomfort with areas where he feels less confident, but doesn't yet understand their importance.

Here are some potential strategies for managing this student and reshaping his musical experience:

1. Reframe Hanon as a Tool, Not a Goal
Instead of outright discouraging Hanon, you could try framing it as just one aspect of technique that supports other musical goals. Show him how the technical skills he's gaining from Hanon can be applied to music pieces that he might find rewarding.
For example, tie a Hanon exercise directly to a section in a piece like the Minuet by J.C.F. Bach or even something slightly more modern that he might connect with. Show him that technique serves musical expression.

2. Link Technique to Expressive Music-Making
It seems that he hasn't yet connected technique to the idea of expression. Perhaps introducing short, but expressive pieces that also require technical precision—like Bartók’s Mikrokosmos or Kabalevsky’s Children’s Pieces—could challenge him in a way that appeals to his need for accomplishment, but also develops musicality.
This could help shift his focus from speed and mechanical playing to phrasing, dynamics, and interpretation, showing him that real achievement also comes from making the music sound beautiful and expressive.

3. Engage His Analytical Mind
The student seems to enjoy patterns, as seen in his affinity for the Hanon exercises and his sharpness in finding shortcuts like the mnemonic device for key signatures. You could lean into this by showing him the underlying patterns in music, such as harmony, the structure of classical forms (like ABA or sonata form), or rhythmic patterns.
Teach him to analyze music, so that he can see beyond just note names or key signatures, giving him an intellectual framework that might align with his way of thinking.

4. Develop Emotional Engagement with Music
Given that this student doesn’t have clear goals for his piano learning, it might be worth helping him discover why music matters beyond just technical mastery. You could play expressive, engaging pieces for him and ask him what he feels about the music, encouraging him to see the piano as a medium for communication and emotion.
You could also introduce music that resonates more with him, such as film scores or pieces from popular piano arrangements, to tap into a deeper interest. Something like a simplified version of a piece from a soundtrack he likes might engage him.

5. Set Clear Expectations About Attitude
As for his rudeness, it’s important to address that directly and set boundaries for respectful communication. Being a patient teacher is important, but it’s equally important for him to understand that a healthy student-teacher relationship is built on mutual respect.
You could have an open discussion about how he can express his frustrations constructively, and that a shared goal is to help him improve holistically as a musician, not just in technical speed.

6. Incorporate a Structured, Varied Routine
A varied lesson plan with clear, short-term goals might help him see progress in different areas and alleviate some of his frustration. For example:
10 minutes of Hanon for technique.
10 minutes on a short piece where he applies that technique.
10 minutes exploring music theory through games or composition.
The key is to give him a sense of accomplishment in multiple areas, not just one.
This student is clearly bright and capable but has likely been unintentionally funneled into a narrow mindset about piano playing. With time, patience, and a focus on helping him see the broader picture of musicianship, he can transform from being an overly mechanical player into a more well-rounded and expressive musician.

[figaro]

Thank you for responding and sharing what you were able to find using ChatGPT.  I haven't used that for this purpose but it looks like it can be useful.  Item 5 will be a priority as he is trying to direct how his lessons will be taught and what he will be learning. 

[dizzyfingers]

CHATGPT:

I talked to someone who knew a lot about "AI" chatbots.  Of course they are all based on programming ... however they are programmed is how they will act.  Some are more accurate information focused and some are more persuasion focused.  He said Perplexity was one of the better ones for correct information.  He said ChatGPT is more persuasion oriented.  I tested this out, asking questions about the plot of a book I read.  ChatGPT kept on "guessing", i.e. giving the wrong answer instead of just saying "I don't have that info".   So it's worth investigating the chatbot you are using. 

[lostinidlewonder]

It's why I said because the OP is a teacher they should query chatGPT. You will get info that you can sift in real time which can really help you think more. Not everything is reliable I agree but if you are a professional in a field you can discern the good and bad and requestion the ai. I use it a lot for research and it's a super useful tool.

[parentofayoungpianist]

I have some free advice to give, but please take them as no more than what they are - free advice. And disclaimer: I'm not a piano teacher, as suggested by my username.

1. From your description, the student may have a sight-reading problem. He might have played Hanon through finding the patterns, instead of reading the notes. Perhaps try music note flashcards for this. Make it light, manageable and let him enjoy the sense of accomplishment after learning more and more cards.
2. Find out why he likes the Mozart piece. Then find A FEW pieces that have the same quality but at a level you think is appropriate for him to choose from. He sounds like a bright kid, who usually wouldn't take answers for granted. The best way to teach bright kids is through collective problem solving and getting their buy-in(s). If they get to choose which piece to learn, they will have more ownership (and less resistance).
3. Another option is to let him learn the Mozart piece by ear, for now, while he works on his sight-reading skills. But again, given the info you provided, I'm not sure whether this would be appropriately challenging for him.

Your judgment of where his level is seems to contradict with where he thinks his level is. And it does sound like he likes challenges. I think it might be a good idea to find out what he is good at, and then use his strengths a lot, while tackling his weaknesses little by little (not too much at a time, or else he would be frustrated). After all, you want to first and foremost motivate this student to continue learning, without which there would be no opportunity for him to get better at piano.

And as a rule in general, tell the student which areas he's done well, what progress he has made, often. At least more often than negative or restraining comments like "this is too hard for you", "you can't ..."

My two cents. Hope it helps.

[essence]

try teaching him how to listen?

When I was 18, I had auditioned for a Cambridge organ scholarship (and failed miserably) but thought I was qute good. For the gap period prior to going up to read physics and maths I went to guildhall school of music and was auditioned by Nicholas Danby (RIP) on a small chamber tracker action organ. he listened, and said he would take me on if I did what he asked.

I was then put through a series of lessons, mainly on how to lay a single note and how to play silences. [For the organ, the end of the note is as important as the start of a note].

He was extremely critical, and every slight error in articulation he would ask me to repeat the single note.

We gradually moved on to actual pieces, and then he would criticise whenever it wasn;t perfect legato (raise previous note at the exact time the next note is played)

Basically, he was teaching me to listen.

Move forward a year, I was helping the person who actually got the organ scholarship, he wanted me to play the Dorian toccata so he could listen to the registration.

He was amazed at my level of articulation.

I think piano students are asked to play scales in the style of lots of different composers? Maybe you could ask him to play Hanon in the style of debussy? Or prokoviev?

I have a link to a perfect example of organ technique, it is not at all as easy as it seems.

i=7h-_0WX4yv8MrHGb

Listen to the micro phrasing.

Here are example from Nicholas Danby.

i=1wYFu_gC73IHZ21V

[I only just found this - magnificent playing of one of my favourites which I payed regularly, the G major fantasia].

No apologies at all for discussing organ music on a piano forum.

It may be to everybody's benefit if, given your friendly but critical feedback every time he is not perfect, that you part your ways. you can;t teach someone who does not want to learn.

This is another example - if you listen extremely carefully, you will be amazed at the articulation.

i=R1PRGHAu-wvLHohM

[pianocavs]

May I ask, do you have any information about why this student left his former teacher?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

If he likes Hannon let him play Hannon.

He’s not tryna be a professional and he doesn’t have any goals so I don’t see the point in tryna make him do stuff he doesn’t wanna do

[dizzyfingers]

Recently I took on a new piano student.  Their previous teacher had informed me of how impressive this student is, how quickly they learn - and have started playing Hanon exercises as well as starting on Mozart's Rondo alla Turca, in the original arrangement.  When hearing all of this I thought - wow this student is 11 years old, they might eventually need a more advanced level teacher.   When I finally met with the student I asked them to play the most recent exercises and pieces from his previous teacher.  He is learning from the Faber Piano Adventure Level 3B book and played the last lesson very fast - I learned he had been practicing that lesson piece for one month and each week it was to increase the tempo.  When he played his Hanon exercise, again it was played fast and mechanically.  Again, I learned he spends a month on each exercise and the goal each week is to increase the speed.  In the one year he had started on Hanon, this student reached Exercise 11 this month.  I also discovered that the previous teacher skipped around in the method books.

After about 3 lessons with him, I asked him what are his goals in learning piano.  He said he didn't know.  I then asked if he liked learning piano, and it was a yes.  When I asked what he thought about learning Hanon, he grinned and said it gave him a sense of accomplishment.  Hearing this, I thought great, he's interested in learning skills.  But when I then learned he hadn't played any music aside from the Faber books and now Hanon, I decided it would be good to introduce some short pieces for him to apply his skills.

That's when things became extremely difficult with this student.  He has been resisting in learning the order of the key signatures - because he was taught a nemonic method of finding sharps and flats he didn't see a reason to understand that G major starts 5 notes from C major, but once he discovers this pattern then he dismissed the entire concept of the Circle of 5ths.  He protested at having to play C major (because he already knows it) but later discovered he had difficulty playing it in contrary motion or finding the block chords.  And he doesn't see a reason to practice scales if he knows how to find them with the nemonic method his previous teacher taught - it doesn't matter to him that he didn't remember the pattern of major scales (WWHWWWH) - which is covered in the Faber books but he obviously didn't practice continuously to put into memory. 

But his biggest complaint about me is that he accuses me of holding him back.  And I can see he doesn't think I know how to teach because he believes he already knows everything.  When I ask him a question, and he thinks he knows the answer, he would respond in a condescending tone of voice, even when he is wrong.  I'm very patient but I'm not going to tolerate rudeness and disrespect. 

He is acting this way in part because I informed him and his parents that the Mozart piece is too advanced for him to learn at this time.  Due to his interest in playing fast, his hand was hurting from the 2 months of learning the introduction - and which was only possible by writing in the name of the notes on the page and removing some notes.  I also recognized that he figured out the pattern in the Hanon exercises and wants to finish the entire book as his accomplishment.  Meanwhile, he might be at a late beginner level, he hasn't put into practice the lessons from the method books he had completed towards an original piece of music.  I gave him a short Minuet by JCF Bach, which is at his level and he is letting me know he doesn't care about the piece by how he plays.  This student resents learning music and just wants to play from the Hanon book,  When I explained to him that this short piece of music also contains technique to learn, he got a bit interested and finally put some effort in learning the piece.  But when lessons ended I can see he was still not happy with me.

I have met a number of students who have some type of goal for learning the piano.  Some want to be able to write their own songs, form a band with their friends, play music that their parent learned to play, or if they're adult learners, finally fulling a dream to play the piano.  While each of these students have their different challenges, overall they all have a motivation to keep them learning and practicing - and the motivation doesn't involve learning from only one book of finger exercises.

He sounds like he may be mildly autistic, have you considered that?  He seems to have a narrow learning bandwidth and likes repeating patterns.  Either way, I think it would be wise to approach him as "special needs", i.e. be radically flexible and don't worry about goals.  Perhaps your goal could be to support him in his self-guiding idiosyncratic journey through music.  Therefore, as others have said, let him play the Hanon book.  He may also like the beginner Czerny books.  He might like some of the repeating pattern pieces of Bach like WTC I prelude 1 and prelude 2, if he ever gets to that level.
best wishes on this challenge ~~

[keypeg]

When a student learns with one teacher, and that is the only teacher they only had, then whatever happened in lessons is how the student perceives things.  It is how music works: how good or bad he is at things; how you study and practice - everything. There is no broader perspective - his reality has been formed.  Obviously the original teacher did not see the problems you see, or aim for the kinds of goals you are aiming for.  I have no solutions, but that's what you're dealing with.

If someone comes from another teacher, and the student perceives there may be problems of some kind, then the student will be open to solutions.  But since he's supposed to be the bee's knees, that's not there.

[jonslaughter]

Recently I took on a new piano student.  Their previous teacher had informed me of how impressive this student is, how quickly they learn - and have started playing Hanon exercises as well as starting on Mozart's Rondo alla Turca, in the original arrangement.  When hearing all of this I thought - wow this student is 11 years old, they might eventually need a more advanced level teacher.   When I finally met with the student I asked them to play the most recent exercises and pieces from his previous teacher.  He is learning from the Faber Piano Adventure Level 3B book and played the last lesson very fast - I learned he had been practicing that lesson piece for one month and each week it was to increase the tempo.  When he played his Hanon exercise, again it was played fast and mechanically.  Again, I learned he spends a month on each exercise and the goal each week is to increase the speed.  In the one year he had started on Hanon, this student reached Exercise 11 this month.  I also discovered that the previous teacher skipped around in the method books.

After about 3 lessons with him, I asked him what are his goals in learning piano.  He said he didn't know.  I then asked if he liked learning piano, and it was a yes.  When I asked what he thought about learning Hanon, he grinned and said it gave him a sense of accomplishment.  Hearing this, I thought great, he's interested in learning skills.  But when I then learned he hadn't played any music aside from the Faber books and now Hanon, I decided it would be good to introduce some short pieces for him to apply his skills.

That's when things became extremely difficult with this student.  He has been resisting in learning the order of the key signatures - because he was taught a nemonic method of finding sharps and flats he didn't see a reason to understand that G major starts 5 notes from C major, but once he discovers this pattern then he dismissed the entire concept of the Circle of 5ths.  He protested at having to play C major (because he already knows it) but later discovered he had difficulty playing it in contrary motion or finding the block chords.  And he doesn't see a reason to practice scales if he knows how to find them with the nemonic method his previous teacher taught - it doesn't matter to him that he didn't remember the pattern of major scales (WWHWWWH) - which is covered in the Faber books but he obviously didn't practice continuously to put into memory. 

But his biggest complaint about me is that he accuses me of holding him back.  And I can see he doesn't think I know how to teach because he believes he already knows everything.  When I ask him a question, and he thinks he knows the answer, he would respond in a condescending tone of voice, even when he is wrong.  I'm very patient but I'm not going to tolerate rudeness and disrespect. 

He is acting this way in part because I informed him and his parents that the Mozart piece is too advanced for him to learn at this time.  Due to his interest in playing fast, his hand was hurting from the 2 months of learning the introduction - and which was only possible by writing in the name of the notes on the page and removing some notes.  I also recognized that he figured out the pattern in the Hanon exercises and wants to finish the entire book as his accomplishment.  Meanwhile, he might be at a late beginner level, he hasn't put into practice the lessons from the method books he had completed towards an original piece of music.  I gave him a short Minuet by JCF Bach, which is at his level and he is letting me know he doesn't care about the piece by how he plays.  This student resents learning music and just wants to play from the Hanon book,  When I explained to him that this short piece of music also contains technique to learn, he got a bit interested and finally put some effort in learning the piece.  But when lessons ended I can see he was still not happy with me.

I have met a number of students who have some type of goal for learning the piano.  Some want to be able to write their own songs, form a band with their friends, play music that their parent learned to play, or if they're adult learners, finally fulling a dream to play the piano.  While each of these students have their different challenges, overall they all have a motivation to keep them learning and practicing - and the motivation doesn't involve learning from only one book of finger exercises.

The kid then will have to learn the hard way. Same thing for all of us. If the kid is hard headed and refuses to accept tutor because some other teacher or parents filled his head that he is Mozart then what can you do? You could do something but it likely will cause more problems. You could try to figure out some way to get the kid to understand and see it as a learning lesson for you but sometimes people need to learn the hard way. I was one of those kids and it took me a long time to learn my lesson.

What the kid is doing is playing what he is good at because he knows he can't do the other stuff. He wants to be praised and feel like he's special.

What you should do is give him a very challenging piece and tell him this is *one* of the hardest pieces of music in the world. Tell him very few musicians every can play it well because it is so hard. See how well he does with it(like you should be able to play it too and it should be hard). Tell him it is a like Hanon exercise on steroids.

Tell him that if he has any trouble with it that you will help him figure it out and all he has to do is ask you but it will still be hard and he will have to work every day on it for an hour at least and it might take him a month to be able to play it.

After a month if he has it then you know he can figure things out himself and just needs to be motivated. If he struggles then you know if he asks for help or not. If he doesn't then after a month you can ask him why he could not do it if he is so good. When he gets mad or cries you can tell him that everyone struggles with it and everyone isn't born knowing everything. If he wants to be better and become really good he has ask others for help. That even the best piano players learned from other people and asked for help and would practice what they said even if they didn't know why it was important. Ether he will quit you or it will be a waste of time from that point on or he will eventually come around after a few weeks. You'll have to play it by ear.

The problem is that when kids get a big head and do not realize they are not as good as the people around them have been telling them it becomes a much more serious problem. It actually hurts them to let them continually believing this. It stunts their growth.  It's a similar issue when a kid feels like they are no good. It may be that the kid is simply not a good match for you or that you need to find a different way to teach him for trick him into learning things. No one said life was easy.

[essence]

Give him Chopin op 25 no. 6, that will reduce the size of his head.

Stop him every time it is uneven or the thirds are not together.

Start very slow and increase tempo 10% each week.

Teach him practice techniques.

Tell him some well known professional pianists cannot play it.

Then play him a recording of Richter or similar.

Just listened to Richter. Very fast, but the thirds not always together!