how much wrist action?

[janice]

I'm sorry if this post is in the wrong place.  Nils, you can move it to the appropriate category.  I posted this here under 'performance' because I have seen people (while playing in a casual situation) who move their wrists up and down alot--mainly UP.  They are usually trying to be dramatic. Can you visualize what I mean?  It kinda makes me sick to watch it! lol But seriously, how much wrist action is too much?

[Tash]

well according to my teacher any wrist action is too much! she's incredibly narky about it, so i tend to use very little up and down wrist action because i've taken on her thoughts that it's a waste of time to do so. so now i find watching people who do move their wrists a lot really annoying. but i guess it's really up to the individual pianist. i personally just can't be bothered!

[willcowskitz]

Too much = when it becomes the cause rather than result of action, and is so endangering the primary reason for why one even bothers to aim for the keys

I recently noticed that my hands jump way up from the keys in certain pieces and passages, and I'm aware of the reason for this:  When I'm playing, I'm "flowing", and to prevent it from stopping or slowing down I use my body to articulate my thought in the silent parts. After I've played a powerful octave, my left hand instinctively fires up from the keys as a reminder of the mood that it was in when it first hit the keys. It also helps me to stay in rhythm when I exaggerate motions of my hands because there's more air, more space that I *feel*, and therefore a higher density of memory marks that I continuously recall the mental side of the music from.

This all happens intuitively, and has got nothing to do with "trying to be dramatic" or to look impressive (or goofy?).

[anda]

as much as needed for what you want. anymore than the necessary is definitely ballet and has nothing to do with playing. but there are certain wrist moves that can help.

[maxy]

well according to my teacher any wrist action is too much! she's incredibly narky about it, so i tend to use very little up and down wrist action because i've taken on her thoughts that it's a waste of time to do so.

 

The wrists are to the pianist what the bow is to the string players...  They are the main expressive articulations.  The use of locked wrists can be accepted in few occasions to produce a cold dry mechanical sound. 

once again:       

[Radix]

When I move my wrists up, it's because I'm "playing into the piano."  Moving the wrist through a phrase can help it be more connected, and it certainly allows for a sharper sound.

Santiago Rodriguez calls it "spiking the notes!"

[jlh]

When I move my wrists up, it's because I'm "playing into the piano."  Moving the wrist through a phrase can help it be more connected, and it certainly allows for a sharper sound.

Santiago Rodriguez calls it "spiking the notes!"

Also, a gentle and slight upward motion of the wrist can help achieve a better singing tone through the end of phrases.  I'd like to see someone play two-note slurs correctly without any wrist motion at all...

Granted, in a lot of places excessive (or any at all) wrist motion can be detrimental, especially in fast passages when you need to move your hands horizontally and not vertically, but the rest of the time a little wrist motion can be helpful.  Use in moderation, however, and don't let any motions you make distract from the music you're [re]creating. Afterall, it is the music that people want to hear.  If they wanted to see theatrics, they'd go see a play or something.

[Tash]

 

The wrists are to the pianist what the bow is to the string players...  They are the main expressive articulations.  The use of locked wrists can be accepted in few occasions to produce a cold dry mechanical sound. 

once again:       

i wasn't saying keep your wrists completely locked, like keep them relxed, but bouncing them up and down is a waste of time. like if you're playing something speedy, maybe a bit staccato and forte, then raising your wrist and then plonking it down is 1) going to slow you down, 2) give a more percussive tone, 3) is apparently bad for the piano as it can damage the strings or something- i can't fully remember but my teacher once went off at me a bit for doing so!

[Kapellmeister27]

As far as extraneous movement, think of it this way.

Does a golfer or tennis player really need to have good backswing?

No, because once the ball is hit, there's nothing they can do anymore.

But since they practice with follow-through, it affects how they hit the ball and therefore results in a better swing.

Same thjing with piano, yes some people may swing there wrist a lot after pressing the keys, but it is reflesive since they have practiced this wayto help them achieve a better tone.

[richard w]

I haven't seen any of the Taubman videos yet (but I really would like to - they're a bit expensive to buy, though), but on the website there are a few snippets to give you an idea of what they contain. One of the snippets shows that if you have rapidly repeated octaves you can raise and lower the wrists to spread the work between different muscle groups, and therefore avoid fatigue.




Richard.

[Motrax]

Wrist movement is very important in playing the piano. Sure, when you watch a virtuoso rip through some prestissimo scales, you won't notice wrist movement. But for many of these pianists (especially those taught with Russian methods) wrist movement is an integral part of their playing. Arrau was a very strong proponent of practicing with extremely exaggerated wrist movement to develop a better sound. After practicing with large amounts of wrist movement for a long time, you get much better control over your playing - you don't have to use large movements when you actually play, but you'll still have that option in your technique.

(and Radix - do you go to the University of Maryland?)

[anda]

i couldn't play if my wrist were imobile. i use my wrist to guide my fingers even if i have to play a simple c dur scale. and i esp use my wrist to balance arm weight - and thus my wrist helps me use different sound colours.

[sznitzeln]

I agree about wrist movements being indispensable... both for technique and for phrasing...

A agree with you that playing the C major scale is pretty easy , but it made me think of something I read in Heinrich Neuhaus "The art of piano playing" ...
It says that C major is the most difficult scale because of the unnatural position of the hand... Chopin advocated that students should begin to play e #f #g #a b , and begin with those scales that have most black keys... and the last scale: C-major 

(I think C sharp is more diffucult... requires more stable fingers)

[bernhard]

I agree with Tash’s teacher. Any up and down wrist motion is to be avoided (major cause of carpal tunnel syndrome). The forearm/wrist/hand should form a single unit.

At the same time the wrist should not be rigid or tense. This is also wrong. The wrist should be free (which is different from “relaxed”) in order to accommodate movements of the hand (the wrist is after all a “hinge”).

Perhaps the most widespread bad habit is to “bounce” on the keys by moving the wrist slightly up and down. This destroys the alignment of the playing apparatus and isolates actions that should be co-ordinated.

I find that this subject cannot properly be conveyed in writing. Demonstration and a hands on approach are necessary. It is really easy to get the wrong idea from reading descriptions of the correct wrist usage. Also there are too many caveats. In fact I feel exhausted from only thinking about writing properly about this subject. 

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[willcowskitz]

Any up and down wrist motion is to be avoided (major cause of carpal tunnel syndrome).

I'm not sure if I understand the relation. Unless, of course, one isn't following with his arm but allowing an angle to be formed between hand and forearm. Now that I think of it, what exactly does "wrist motion" involve?

[bernhard]

Just came across this interesting set of statistics (in general - not just piano related):

On which part of the body do the majority of repetitive motion injuries occur? It's all in the wrist.

(Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics, 2002, Occupational Injuries and Illnesses in the United States.)

Wrist – 53%
Hand, finger and other upper extremities (excluding wrist): 16%
Knee, foot , toe and other lower extremities: 2%
Head,neck and trunk (including shoulder and back): 16%

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[nick]

I agree with those that said wrist movement is essential to proper technique. The exagerated motion is when one is going slower, and as speed increases, the movement is smaller. At the fastest speed it is almost imperceptible. Without this wrist movement up and down, tension occurs in my wrist, as well as when the playing is faster than my ability at a given point.

Nick

[maxy]

Now that I think of it, what exactly does "wrist motion" involve?

Vertical motion and lateral motion... and both at the same time.

Horizontal is necessary for proper phrasing, it is also very useful when "passing" the thumb.  Vertical helps with articulation and with the harmonic fonctions.  Tonics and dominants should not be played the same way.

Some piano "schools" won't agree.

[willcowskitz]

Ah, so hmm, if I'm using my wrist to execute some sort of "catapult effect" to get strength into chords or accented notes, is it generally thought of as a bad habit?

[Sketchee]

Working with my teacher, it often seems that a lot of wrist movement can usually be replaced with a little arm movement.   Often he changes a difficult passage into an easy and controlled one just by making that suggestion to me.

[Corsair]

"how much wrist action?"
hehe, not too much, you could go blind!

[nikodr]

Sorry for my bad english.I think that it really depends much more on the piece.The required sonority you want to create will make you musically use the correct technique to create it.I mean other times you will have to use deep movements of the wrist  (inward the piano) (or out of the piano),and other times you will have to use other resources.

      Now please remember this: your body is the driver in that.In fingers there is always the higher place you can raise them (after that pain and discomfort are produced) and the lower place you can place them(again after that you will feel pain and discomfort).The range between those 2 extreme ranges is the good one to play.

The same with wrist.While it is advisable to play with weight techniques remember the best region is when you play in the "middle range",the Very very VERY HIGH wrist positions or VERY very very LOW wrist positions ,are BAD FOR YOUR BODY and FINGER-wrist health,you will feel discomfort and pain at once.


        Again remember to learn the weight technique that is to learn to do a controlled arm drop.(Leave the hand to go down with the help of gravity,and use wrists as shock absorvers,remember not to let the arm feel and collapse without control it has to be a CONtroled arm drop).


Again my advice for you all movements are efficiantely done on the the middle ranges of the wrist.Pain should never be created under any way.If you think your wrists are not positioned correctly,you need to check your bench height,and position at the piano.


Other that that remember it is the piece you want to learn, is it with fast scales or a slow scales?(etc you can add whatever words for specific piano pieces you want here...bla bla bla bla bla bla bla).

I think piano technique is an combination and use of the following 4 different ways, Stacato and legato(or the illusion of the legato we have to create at piano) ,tenuto and lieggero.The ways these 4 elements of play are used and combined are what create the universal sound one pianist has when someone plays the instrument.Avoid the extreme ranges of the wrist that is my opinion again.And in fingers too,extreme ranges are the cause for pain and are bad

[bernhard]

I'm not sure if I understand the relation. Unless, of course, one isn't following with his arm but allowing an angle to be formed between hand and forearm. Now that I think of it, what exactly does "wrist motion" involve?

The problems with this sort of question are really two:

1.   Terminology and knowledge of anatomy: people use the word “wrist” and “wrist movement” to refer to all sorts of things, so that in order to even begin to discuss the subject one needs to write a lengthy post simply explaining the basic facts and providing a common nomenclature.

2.   The best way to discuss any of this is through demonstration, not through writing. Writing just takes too long and is simply too inaccurate leading to all sorts of misleading and misguiding information. Two persons who share a certain knowledge will be able to talk about that knowledge and totally understand each other even if their language is totally inaccurate and off the mark, since as they know the subject they will be able to make the necessary allowances and adjustments. However, if one of the persons does not have the knowledge of the other, or have a knowledge of a different kind, verbal discussion more often than not will degenerate in heated argument. So we come to the paradoxical situation where important information can only be meaningfully communicated through language to someone who already has that knowledge, and therefore does not need to talk about it at all.

So.

First understand what is the wrist from an anatomical point of view, which is very different from the understanding most pianists have of it (and the common person in the street).

Look at these pictures:

https://www.ucgc.org/segments/wrist-injury/

Most people would not call this the wrist, but would call it the hand, since we tend to regard the hand (minus the fingers) as solid block of flesh and bones, instead of  a collection of  8 different bones.

You could argue (as xvimbi has done a number of times) that anatomically speaking the fingers extend well inside the “hand”- the metacarpal bones, but this is not what is commonly understood as the fingers. The common usage of the terms “hand”, “fingers” and “wrist”, is simply that the fingers are the phalanxes, the hand is the solid bit to which the fingers are attached (that is, anatomically speaking the carpals plus the metacarpals – so that in common usage the hand includes the wrist and sometimes the fingers too) and that attaches itself to the forearm, and finally the wrist is the “hinge” between the hand and the forearm.

So for a discussion of this subject to be meaningful we have to define (not that difficult actually) what exactly are we talking about. 

Consider the wrist anatomically. If what you call the wrist are the carpal bones, there is really next to no movement in them. They move together as a unity with the metacarpals. So talking about wrist movement is simply an inaccurate use of language. When people talk about wrist movement they are talking about something else altogether – as we shall see in a moment.

What about from the point of view of calling the hinge between the hand and forearm (more accurately between the wrist and forearm) the wrist (improperly)?

Again a hinge does not really move: it allows the parts attached to it to move. So again there is no “wrist movement”, what there is is hand and forearm movement.

So this discussion is not really about wrist movement but about this: Should the forearm and hand be allowed to move by hinging on each other, either horizontally or vertically, or should we brace the hinge so that hand and forearm work as a unit? The answer – as with everything else in this universe is: It depends.

What does it depend on? Now again we have to go into another direction if we truly wish to understand the subject and profit from this understanding. And what we have to understand is the idea of levers and fulcrum points, since ultimately that is what the joints of the arm (shoulder joint, elbow joint, wrist joint, finger joints) do: not only they act as hinges, as they function as fulcrum points for the bones (which function as the levers). The whole thing is of course held together and dependent for its proper functioning on muscles, tendons, ligaments and sheaths.

Wrist injuries are the most prevalent ones (see reply # 15 above). They are mostly caused by “up and down” movements of the wrist, and in the case of piano playing, if one plays consistently with wrists dropped, carpal tunnel syndrome is assured. Side twisting (abduction and adduction of the hand in relation to the forearm) - usually from trying to reach the notes with the thumb is another big no-no movement.

So, if you technique is based on up-and down and sideways movements of the wrists, and if you think that you are being emotional and expressing deep feeling by an exaggerated “choreography” of the wrists, think again, since soon all you will be feeling is pain, and all you will be expressing is regret that you did not pay attention to these matters.

The movements that should make the basis of one’s technique are:

1.   shifting of the arm to position the fingers (so that the fingers to not “reach for the keys).

2.   Rotation of the forearm to lift the fingers (instead of the “lifting fingers high” so prized by Hanon and their supporters)

3.   Back and forwards movements of the arm to negotiate the black keys and bringing the thumb and little finger in position. (instead of twisting the hand on the horizontal plane to accommodate the short fingers).

4.   Forearm and hand moving as a single unit to transfer weight to the keys (that is, bracing the wrist – instead of letting the wrist collapse or lifting the wrist exaggeratedly).

99.9% of the passages in music can be negotiated by using these movements and their co-ordination. This will guarantee effortlessness in playing and absence of injuries.

These three movements and their co-ordinations:

1.   lifting fingers high.

2.   exaggerated up and down  movement of the wrist.

3.   exaggerated horizontal movement of the wrist (adduction and abduction)

should be used only on truly exceptional circumstances, when nothing else will do. And in fact I would not touch any piece that would require (for me) such movements for extended periods of time.

This all leads to the principle of joint alignment. Use the “good” movements and their co-ordinations and you will notice that your joints are aligned, while the “bad” movements always result in severe misalignment of the joints.

Of  course this is just the tip of a monumental iceberg and whole volumes could be written about it. As of necessity much has been left out, and the only efficient way to learn about these things is to have the good fortune of meeting someone who truly knows about it and is prepared not only to demonstrate it to the student but also observe, and correct the student – it is surprisingly easy to understand the concept and yet to be unable to actually do it. This really requires hands on approach.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[andhow04]

Dear Bernhard : you have succeeded once again in making piano playing crystal clear, and seeming so easy!  Or, since I was able to get something from your knowldege, does that mean I already knew it !?!?! Hehe. I feel obscene reading your posts because you should be getting paid big pounds for this.  Carry on !
Andrew Howzer
 
 

[i_m_robot]

3.   Back and forwards movements of the arm to negotiate the black keys and bringing the thumb and little finger in position. (instead of twisting the hand on the horizontal plane to accommodate the short fingers).
   

bit confused

is this is disagreement with fink and slightly turning the wrist to allow the muscle tendons to line up for each finger

or has self missed both points completely

[xvimbi]

bit confused

is this is disagreement with fink and slightly turning the wrist to allow the muscle tendons to line up for each finger

or has self missed both points completely

If you follow the "rule" that the fingers should be in line with the forearm (which may require small adjustments in the wrist), then there are two main consequences. First, the arm has to constantly move in and out of the keyboard to bring the fingers into playing position. That's what Bernhard meant with "back and forwards movements of the arm". Second, there will be circumstances where the fingers are not collinear with the keys. That's perfectly OK, because being collinear with the keys is not a requirement for anatomically correct playing.

[i_m_robot]

 

so its good then?